“Thus we see that in marriage, a husband and wife enter into an order of the priesthood called the new and everlasting covenant of marriage. This covenant includes a willingness to have children and to teach them the gospel. Many problems of the world today are brought about when parents do not accept the responsibilities of this covenant. It is contradictory to this covenant to prevent the birth of children if the parents are in good health.
“Thirty-five years ago when I first started practicing medicine, it was a rare thing for a married woman to seek advice about how she could keep from having babies. When I finished practicing medicine, it was a rare thing, except for some faithful Latter-day Saint women, for a married woman to want to have more than one or two children, and some did not want any children. We in the Church must not be caught up in the false doctrines of the world that would cause us to break sacred temple covenants. –Elder J. Ballard Washburn
Modern Mormon feminists have a mission: they want to break through stereotypes that would define Latter-day Saint wives as perpetually pregnant women bound to their children and stripped of choices to succeed in life.
They are a few years too late. The fact is, most LDS women have no intention of being pregnant too soon or with too much frequency.
As a Mormon blogger recently wrote, “Three is the new six.”
In the culture of Babylon, pregnancy is not a partnership with God, it’s a fashion statement. In the culture of Babylon, children are something to be put off until you’ve done everything else, and that is the one thing you haven’t tried yet. In fact, many find that they never tire of life without children, and are perfectly content to skip it altogether.
In the culture of Babylon, a woman who is perpetually pregnant is considered ignorant, stupid, strange, oppressed, backward….something of a failure. If the woman happens to have sacrificed her figure to have all those babies, she is even worse…she is ugly.
The culture of Babylon celebrates the fact that women can use birth control to put off children or forego having them altogether:
Sadly, the attitude of the above nauseating commercial has taken hold in Mormon culture. Recent statistics show that the average LDS family has three children, just one more than the average non-LDS family. A BYU sociologist also noted that LDS members in Mexico usually have fewer children than non-members in that country. The BYU Health Center director reported that at least 80% of women who are getting married request birth control, which corroborates Tim Heaton’s research showing that LDS rate of birth control usage is the same as the national rate: 80.5%.
Over the past decade, I have also seen a huge increase in the number of cases of infertility within the church. I am very happy to see that most members have been very understanding and loving toward infertile couples, as they should be. I believe it is vitally critical as Relief Society sisters, especially, that we refrain from making any kind of judgments regarding this sacred subject.
In our efforts to be compassionate, however, we have overlooked the education of our children in number one main cause of infertility in the United States, and in some cases, we have encouraged our daughters to damage their bodies and put themselves at risk for death. How can this be? There are many reasons a couple can be infertile that are beyond the control of mortals, but there are other causes that are preventable.
First, let’s look at the number one cause of infertility in the United States and the world: PID.
Pelvic Inflammatory Disease is a serious infection in the upper genital tract/reproductive organs (uterus, fallopian tubes and ovaries) of a female. PID can be sexually transmitted or naturally occurring. It can lead to infertility in women (unable to have children) or life-threatening complications.
Two sexually transmitted diseases (STDs), chlamydia and gonorrhea, are the most common causes of PID. Other bacteria or germs can also cause PID. While it is important to remember that PID can be naturally occurring, the most common causes of PID are chlamydia and gonorrhea. Do our young women and young men know this? Do they realize that oral sex can lead to PID as well?
Do our young men and young women going to college realize that chlamydia can be acquired just by hot tubbing (a popular pastime in Utah)? Do they realize that if they are getting married to someone who has had premarital sex, that it may be a good idea to be tested for sexually transmitted disease? The national statistics are that 50% of the population will acquire an STD by the time they are 35. While I am guessing that LDS people will have a much lower percentage, it will still be a risk. And, although your son or daughter may be chaste and never have premarital sex (oral or otherwise), it is no guarantee that their future husband or wife will have done so. (There is also a very real chance, with abuse numbers as high as they are, that some youth will contract these diseases from rape or incest.)
Second, over the years I have heard mothers of soon to be married daughters talk with gusto about how their daughters will be using birth control to put off having children until they are “ready.” One young lady I know had a future mother-in-law go into hysterics when she found out her future daughter-in-law did not want to go on “the Pill.” The mother-in-law was furious. She would not speak to the couple for weeks without bringing it up, demanding that they “see it her way.” She was also a Relief Society president. These mothers are very, very persuasive in getting their daughters to get on birth control. But, do they understand the risks? I hope not.
If they do understand, these mothers are persuading their daughters to risk:
- bacterial infections (because the pill weakens the immune system)
- infertility-unable to ever bear children
- cervical cancer
- ectopic pregnancy
- shrinking of the womb (endometrial atrophy)
- mood swings and depression
- breast cancer
- blood clots
- birth defects in children conceived while women are on the pill
- stroke
So they can have more money, stuff, experiences? I thought it woefully disappointing to read the following viewpoint of a girl about to get married at BYU:
The Ferrins said they decided to use birth control methods for a short while when they got married so they could get used to being a couple before bringing children into their family. “There is a different dynamic when you get married, and I think it was important for us to develop a marital pattern before introducing new factors like children..”
I wonder if they have factored in the very real chance of breast cancer into their “marriage dynamic,” considering that the Pill has been linked to a 660% rise in breast cancer since 1973?
To show just how much of a threat the pill posed to young women, Lanfranchi pointed to several statistics, including a 2006 Mayo Clinic meta-analysis that concluded that breast cancer risk rises 50 percent for women taking oral contraceptives four or more years before a full-term pregnancy. In 2009, the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center found that women starting the pill before 18 nearly quadruple their risk of triple negative breast cancer. Even more shocking, Swedish oncologist Hakan Olsson concluded that pill use before the age of 20 increases a young woman’s breast cancer risk by more than 1000 percent.
I wonder if they have factored in a chance of cervical cancer into their “marital pattern”:
Women who used the pill for less than five years had no increase in their risk of cervical cancer. But women who reported using birth control pills from five to 10 years had a 60% increase in their rate of cancer; women using the pill more than 10 years had a rate over twice that of women who didn’t use the pill.
Do many of these young women (or their mothers and future spouses) even know how the birth control pill works? For those who don’t, here is a summary. The birth control pill works by:
1. inhibiting ovulation (the primary mechanism), [which, I might add, is a form of infertility]
2. thickening the cervical mucus, thereby making it more difficult for sperm to travel to the egg, and
3. thinning and shriveling the lining of the uterus to the point that it is unable or less able to facilitate the implantation of the newly fertilized egg. The first two mechanisms are contraceptive. The third is abortive.
When a woman taking the Pill discovers she is pregnant (according to The Physician’s Desk Reference’s efficacy rate tables, this is 3 percent of pill-takers each year), it means that all three of these mechanisms have failed. The third mechanism sometimes fails in its role as backup, just as the first and second mechanisms sometimes fail. Each and every time the third mechanism succeeds, however, it causes an abortion.
Yes, the pill causes chemical abortion. It prevents the embryo from implanting in the uterus, causing it to starve to death and be flushed out of the body. A doctor who has spent years studying this effect stated:
Dr. Walt Larimore has told me that whenever he has presented this evidence to audiences of secular physicians, there has been little or no resistance to it. But when he has presented it to Christian physicians there has been substantial resistance. Since secular physicians do not care whether the Pill prevents implantation, they tend to be objective in interpreting the evidence. After all, they have little or nothing at stake either way. Christian physicians, however, very much do not want to believe the Pill causes early abortions. Therefore, I believe, they tend to resist the evidence. This is certainly understandable. Nonetheless, we should not permit what we want to believe to distract us from what the evidence indicates we should believe.
What do members of the church think? Here is the church policy:
“…The decision as to how many children to have and when to have them is extremely intimate and private and should be left between the couple and the Lord. Church members should not judge one another in this matter…sexual relations within marriage are divinely approved not only for the purpose of procreation, but also as a means of expressing love and strengthening emotional and spiritual bonds between husband and wife.”
Many members have extracted from that statement a tacit endorsement for birth control. I could not find, however, anywhere it says the decision is intimate and private and should only be left between the couple and their in-laws, the couple and Norplant, or between the couple and Beyaz, or the couple and their OB/GYN. I do understand that there are some couples that will use birth control, and that is between them and the Lord, but what I got from this statement is that a husband and wife can actually invite the Lord into their family planning and that He will send children when it is the right time. It would appear that the Lord can open and shut the womb at the right times and seasons. Of course, this would require a great deal of faith on the part of the couple. And they would have to invite the Lord and the Spirit into their sexual relations, as well. This concept is so foreign to most young single adults that it may be nigh on impossible for them to attempt it. However, there are multiple examples in scripture that would attest to Heavenly Father’s omnipotence in this area of the Plan.
It seems that few young single adult women and men even understand the basics of conception, let alone how to understand fertility. It we understood the absolute miracle that it takes for a woman to get pregnant to begin with (a woman who is regularly sexually active who is not using any form of birth control has only an 11 percent chance of conceiving each month), then we might not be so crazy about the Pill and other forms of birth control. Those 11% odds diminish drastically with age and birth control usage.
Involving God in the number of children and when they come does not necessarily mean practicing a form of birth control until we think we are ready to have a baby. God actually has the power to send children to our families at exactly the right time. There is another quotation which is oft-quoted by those who would choose to wait to have children, given by Elder Gordon B. Hinckley in 1983 :
“I am offended by the sophistry that the only lot of the Latter-day Saint woman is to be barefoot and pregnant,” he said. “It’s a clever phrase, but it is false. Of course we believe in children. The Lord has told us to multiply and replenish the earth that we might have joy in our posterity, and there is no greater joy than the joy that comes of happy children in good families. But he did not designate the number, nor has the church. That is a sacred matter left to the couple and the Lord.”
Many members of the church take this to mean that “three is the new six,” or some similar philosophy. However, they tend to ignore these quotations in the most current “Eternal Marriage” student manual:
Motherhood lies at the foundation of happiness in the home, and of prosperity in the nation. God has laid upon men and women very sacred obligations with respect to motherhood, and they are obligations that cannot be disregarded without invoking divine displeasure. In 1 Timothy 2:13–15 , we are told that ‘Adam was first formed, then Eve. . . .’ Can she be saved without child-bearing? She indeed takes an awful risk if she wilfully disregards what is a pronounced requirement of God” (Joseph F Smith)
Supreme happiness in marriage is governed considerably by a primary factor—that of the bearing and rearing of children. Too many young people set their minds, determining they will not marry or have children until they are more secure, until the military service period is over; until the college degree is secured; until the occupation is more well-defined; until the debts are paid; or until it is more convenient. They have forgotten that the first commandment is to ‘be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it.’ ( Genesis 1:28 .) And so brides continue their employment and husbands encourage it, and contraceptives are used to prevent conception. Relatives and friends and even mothers sometimes encourage birth control for their young newlyweds. But the excuses are many, mostly weak. The wife is not robust; the family budget will not feed extra mouths; or the expense of the doctor, hospital, and other incidentals is too great; it will disturb social life; it would prevent two salaries; and so abnormal living prevents the birth of children. The Church cannot approve nor condone the measures which so greatly limit the family…(Spencer W Kimball)
It is unfortunate, also, that many members now forget the Church’s injunction that members should not judge one another in the matter of how many children to have and when. While I know that there are some people who base their self-esteem on having lots of children (which is NOT a good motivation for having a large family. It’s selfish.), there are not many. They do have a tendency to look down on people who do not have a “quiver full.” That is wrong. I remember when one of my really close friends was struggling with infertility and was continually invited to baby showers. When she would miscarry at 12 weeks, people would say, “Well, it’s not that bad because you weren’t very far along.” (What?!?!?)
But, these days, I find it far more prevalent to see the opposite judgment– those who have limited their families to 3 or 4 constantly judging women who have the courage to choose fertility. Here are just a few of the remarks I have witnessed from other church members:
“Pregnant again? Aren’t you done yet?”
“She’s crazy to have another baby.”
“You know we use [insert a form of birth control here]. It’s really effective.”
“Are you planning on getting your tubes tied after this one?”
“She can’t do [insert calling that involves adults here]. She couldn’t handle it. Let’s call her to Cub Scouts…she obviously likes kids.”
“Well, you can have all those kids because you can afford it.”
“Well, you can have all those kids because you are more patient than I am.”
“Well, she chose to have all those kids, she can figure out how to get through this pregnancy without our help.”
“If she gets so sick every pregnancy, why does she keep having kids? That’s so irresponsible. Well, she did it to herself.”
Note that the last four absolve the observer from ever offering to help the family with lots of children, and assuming that the mother has infinite amounts of patience and, therefore, never needs help. If these are not judgments about how many children to have and when, I don’t know what are. Choosing fertility is often a difficult, hard road. Having many children is really not easy, but often, those with lots of children feel that they cannot show weakness, lest they be given a critical “I told you so,” or be derided. Often, there is little support for the mother of seven or more…especially if she also has weight gain from the pregnancies.
Having worked for many years with victims of abuse, I can see many reasons why people are afraid or unable to have large families. Having seen many instances of women in abusive relationships in which NO ONE would suspect the husband of being that way, I can understand why these women would choose to work and forego having children. I can also understand that there may be people who have prayed and know with absolute certainty that birth control is God’s will for them. I just want people to be educated in the risks and what that actually means when using a form of chemical birth control.
Whether a family has no children, three, or fifteen, is not for us to judge. However, it is vital that each couple take into consideration what it means to have it between them and the Lord. The statement, “left between them and the Lord,” is not a blanket endorsement for birth control, nor is it a new policy to make “three the new six.” If our children are taught what it really means by taking Church policy along with scripture study, faith, knowledge of the body and how birth control works, and knowledge of their own fertility, they will be prepared to make an informed, prayerful, best decision, not one based on Babylon’s version of “choice.”
{ 82 comments… read them below or add one }
WOW. This is one of the reasons why I’m trying to give motherhood a positive and uplifting face. I think we’ve forgotten that motherhood is actually supposed to be a good thing.
Thank you Misty! I love your point about inviting the Lord into the family planning. Unfortunately I was influenced by the current culture in regard to family planning and birth control. While I didn’t use birth control for very long I did use it because that’s what I thought everyone did. I don’t even remember praying specifically about that. Isn’t that sad?
However, what I’m really sad about is our decision for my husband to have a vasectomy after our fifth child (my third). It wasn’t uncommon for married couples around me to either get their tubes tied or have a vasectomy, so my husband had a vasectomy. It’s been five years now and I regret it so much! After being plagued by this regret (guilt) for a long time we kept thinking about a couple in one of our wards who had a vasectomy reversal. They were a couple who had a vasectomy after five children. They then had a reversal and went on to have five more children. We kept thinking about the cute kids from this family that we wouldn’t have known if they hadn’t had their reversal. So, after praying and fasting this time, we decided my husband needed to have a vasectomy reversal. I was so impressed that my husband would even consider it. Once we made the decision, he booked the appointment the next day! We found a really great Christian doctor in Oklahoma (we live in Utah) who has dedicated his practice to “life”. It was a wonderful experience and the doctor even prayed over my husband before the surgery. I don’t know if we will be blessed with more children, but I know that Heavenly Father is truly in control. Thanks so much for the post.
Jennie, our story is exactly like yours! We even went to the same Dr in OK, drove from UT this past summer and we are now expecting a baby in July.
Awwwwwesome. Very inspiring stories.
Agreed. I find our (generally speaking) blanket acceptance of modern birth control alarming. I have read words from apostles and prophets much stronger than the ones you’ve posted and I think the tradition that birth control has become is a sad reflection on our views of the family.
I am grateful that I happened upon a book called The Way Home by a former feminist as a youth.
I wonder what it is that sometimes leads us to place our faith in doctors and pills instead of in God when it comes to our reproductive life?
A few years ago, a young adult announced in Relief Society that her mother was expecting again (this was their 9th). The Relief Society President was conducting and had asked if anyone had any good news to share. Her response was, “Oh, wow…another one?” to which there were a few snickers. The feeling in the room was of ridicule, not love and definately not a celebration of life. I was expecting my 3rd at the time. I raised my hand and said that every baby is a blessing, to which there was a nod and a quick change of subject. I was truly surprised and saddened. This mother and daughter didn’t go back to Relief Society for over a year.
I know not everyone can or will have a large family, but the ridicule of those who choose open their wombs to as many blessings they can have has really been a surprising climate change for me.
One of my favorite talks ever is President Benson’s “To the Mothers in Zion”. Until a couple of years ago, it was available in pamphlet form for distribution in the wards but has lately been discontinued. You can, I think, still find it in the archives. That talk has greatly influenced my life as a mother.
When I started reading this post I was a little worried that it would be a birth-control hating monologue, but I was so pleasantly surprised by the reasonable and honest approach to fertility, birth control, and motherhood that you articulated. The health data you shared was very informative and I look forward to researching it more myself. Further, I appreciated your fairness to both families who choose to hold off on children for a time, and to those who choose to have children right away. I think that mutual respect and charity is critical. I also found your point about considering Heavenly Father as an alternative to birth control very intriguing. I hadn’t really considered that myself. I guess I always thought of birth control as a reasonable choice if you felt inspired to pursue school before having children, etc. To me, birth control seems similar to seeing a doctor or getting a needed surgery, even though you could get a blessing of healing. There are modern medical advances that we often utilize, even though their are spiritual components as well. However your point is interesting and I will have to think about it, especially given the information you shared about birth-control related health risks.
Thanks for your fair, insightful post.
I’ve been waiting on this post, thank you for your thoughtfulness and and insight in writing it. I’ve struggled with these issues for several years. My husband and I were mature ( some would say foolish) enough to realize that if we were ready to get married we were ready to have children which we did in short succession. Our first was born before our first anniversary and the next two within the next couple of years despite having little money or insurance. However, my pregnancies were difficult (hospital stay / bed rest for preterm w/ 1st, nine month throw -up fest and bed rest w/ the third). Bed rest with two pregnancies means no sexual intercourse either ( for newlyweds this was awkward and stressful). Add to this my own lifelong fatigue issues that I have to mange very carefully.Two of my blessed children also had severe colic and sleep issues such that the pediatrician said my daughter was the worse case of colic she had ever seen ( she had not seen my SON!). Lest someone chime in with advice for colic, let me stop you. I only breastfeed ( with no wheat, soy , sugar or dairy in my diet) kept my children in quiet non-over stimulating enviornments,was a slave to their sleep schedules, took every advice from my pediatrician, a very sought after naturalist/homeopath and the Lord’s inspiration! Needless to say after the first three children, I was utterly exhausted, my marriage relationship was suffering and we were still broke. But our beautiful children are healthy and wonderful and we are SO blessed in countless ways. I say all this because, it has been six years since my last was born and we have not had more children yet, by choice and I know our family is not complete. We have been waiting for the right time, the right finacial circumstances, for my health to improve etc… all those things that usually prevent people from starting their families have prevented us from growing our family. It’s still a faith, prayer and inspiration issue. Fortunately we are feeling that the time is right but it is still scary knowing that I may very well be sick and/or in bed for nine months. The balance between raising the children you have and not denying others into your family is tricky and personal. Misty, how do you mange your large family and homeschool etc… with pregnancy concerns? I’d love to hear some of your tips.
Also, I wanted to mention that I have several Catholic friends who have leaps and bounds more faith in these matters than myself or many other LDS mothers. Especially in the Catholic homeschool communitiy, large families are embraced and the mothers are respected and admired within their faith. One mother did not start having children till she was 45 and has 10 children now!!! She is a superstar to her Catholic friends!
Thanks always for your time and effort in these posts.
One of the saddest things about this for me is the way I feel like if I have too many more children I’ll be stressing my mom out. I only have two so far! I always worry about the people around me even more than I worry about my own ability to handle more kids. But when I start to get that worried feeling I try to have faith in my Heavenly Father’s ability to make me a better mother if I listen and obey, and I also take a deep breath and say to myself, “they only come one at a time (mostly)”. That really seems to help for some reason, lol!
That commercial is depressing really. I’m so glad some people can just shop for their lives and get piddly little shallow things like a new house or a trip to Paris, with no idea that they should really let Heavenly Father do the “shopping”. They would get much better “stuff” that way!
It’s interesting the way people think its ok to limit their family and roll their eyes at big families and yet would you send any of your kids back? once they are here are they not a blessing and a joy, a person in their own right, worthy of this earth life and experience? I do think that many people will have a rude awakening when they get to the hereafter and meet the spirits that could have been in their family if they had had a little more faith, and this is coming from a mother who is quite often overwhelmed with her two little ones while at the same time looking forward to more while at the same time worried that I just can’t handle it while at the same time…in other words, I’m conflicted. I just keep praying for faith!!
I do have a question that I would like some opinions on if anyone wants to advise me. I know some women who are having to be working mothers because their husbands are in school or are not able to get a really good job for whatever reason mainly because they feel they need the health insurance that their jobs give to their families? What is your opinion on this? It makes me so sad that they have to work, and they really don’t want to, and yet I understand that health insurance is an important thing. I hate it really. I hate how expensive it is and how it ruins so much. I would say we should all just thumb our nose at it, but then a few months ago there was an article in the Ensign that said you should try to always have health insurance. I was actually really shocked by that article because I felt that it conflicted with some other prophetic guidance, including the counsel that mother’s should stay home if at all possible. Sorry if you think this is unrelated, but I think it is. I know people who put off children because of the health insurance question also.
Now, I’ve got to stop typing because my 11 month old is sending some really adorable baby noises through the baby monitor at me. And no, I would not send him back and I am so glad I was not on birth control and that I have him!!
We went for 1 1/2 years without health insurance. We never needed a doctor or a hospital. We did have a baby during that time, but he was born at home.
We have health insurance now, but I would prefer to go without it. I have strong feelings about all that is wrong in the insurance industry and think it is a false sense of security.
I know everyone has to make their own decision, with the Lord’s guidance, but we prefer to rely on herbs, oils, healthy eating, priesthood blessings, and faith, instead of the “arm of flesh”.
Yes, we are not big fans of western med either. we do have insurance because of my husband’s job and i know we are VERY lucky, but we also don’t go to the doctors! we also prefer herbs and healthy eating, etc. but then there’s that Ensign article. I have a really hard time with conflicting stuff like this. sigh.
This is the article which refers to a talk by N. Elden Tanner which counsels people to “always have health insurance”.
http://lds.org/ensign/2010/01/what-should-we-do-when-we-dont-know-what-to-do?lang=eng
I’ve been a silent reader till now, but I have to comment on this. 2 years ago my son got 3rd degree burns which resulted in skin grafts and a 2 week ICU stay to the tune of 70k. My husband and I use homeopathy, prayer and healthy living as a basis for caring for our family, but to not have health insurance in this case would have been catastrophic! We would have suffered for years to pay for that bill. Having catastrophic insurance does not mean you don’t have faith in the Lord; it means you are following his commandment to care for and protect your children.
Health insurance, in my opinion, is a lot like car insurance. We should all have it “just in case” but we hope to never really need it. A car accident, a premature birth, a terminal illness, etc can completely wipe a family’s budget and savings in a matter of weeks.
There are lots of different types of insurance that a family can tap into. And there may even be prayerful times when a family or a portion of a family is without insurance. Like so many things, we must weigh ALL the costs and risks… not just the financial ones. And, like so many things, there isn’t a clear-cut, letter-of-the-law “rule” because every family and circumstance is different. And some decisions are personal.
My SIL’s dad & fam did not have health insurance because they eat healthy and do herbs and don’t need doctors, but then he broke his neck. They have health insurance now.
We have gone without health insurance for many years because my husband owns his own company. With the recent health care legislation, the cost of insuring his employees and us is far too exorbitant. We have used savings, and recently, we prayerfully decided to temporarily insure me for this pregnancy. For previous pregnancies, we did not feel the need for insurance. We are really grateful for our ability to receive revelation in this matter.
The quote from Elder Tanner is:
This doesn’t sound like he is telling everyone to go out and get insurance. He is simply saying it is the only was most can cover costs for these events. It is often a good suggestion to have health insurance coverage, like someone said, for unexpected catastrophic events. However, with the amount we would be paying per month plus a deductible for our whole family, we could pay for a catastrophic event our of pocket.
Many physicians understand the dilemma that most people are in regarding health insurance and have tried to accommodate those who are uninsured. Many doctors and hospitals have a “cash discount.” You just have to ask. We have, and it is often much lower than what insured people are charged.
There are also alternatives that I have found interesting, like this one:
http://www.chministries.org/ and http://www.samaritanministries.org/
Here is a comparison of these kinds of things: http://sim.plified.com/2008/07/25/christian-medical-bill-sharing-program-comparison/
I do know that prophets and apostles have spoken regarding women staying at home, and I believe this trumps health insurance for our family. That may not be true for a family with special needs children or health issues. I am thankful every day that we don’t have to really worry about this in our family at this season, and I pray for those who do struggle with this.
I was working when I first became pregnant, and had insurance, but lost my job soon after, and the insurance along with it. We paid the prenatal bill out of pocket and with our first two, who were hospital births, we were able to get medicaid to pay the rest. For our 3rd we decided on a homebirth. Again, we paid out of pocket for the maternity care, and that covered prenatal, birth, and post natal care.
Sometimes I become fearful, full of “what-ifs” and wish we had insurance, but I also believe that the Lord has blessed us with good health/a lack of medical emergencies, because we exercised faith in having children, even though we weren’t in, what the world would consider to be, the “best” circumstances.
We have had a couple of times where we did not have health insurance. At first it was really scary to me, but looking back I can see how Heavenly Father blessed us with tremendous blessings of good health. My parents have often commented on how amazingly healthy our family is. I just smile and agree.
I have had a baby without insurance and we were able to contact the hospital where we would deliver and make arrangements with them to pay in cash a discounted fee by the time we delivered. It was very simple and not much more per month than what we now pay for health insurance.
We have not had traditional health insurance for most of our 11 year marriage. We do have high- deuctible or catastrophic insurance that covers emergencies or surgeries. The amount of money that you save can go into health savings accounts and once you reach your deuctible ( in savings dollars) you are basically self-insured. Doctors are usually very willing to work with you and usually give you a huge discount for paying cash.
You know it’s interesting, the Brethren really aren’t saying anymore than mothers should stay at home if at all possible– instead they’ve been emphasizing the importance of prioritizing your family as number one and doing the best you can. As I’ve thought about this change in prophetic approach, it seems to me that they are more broad in their application of effective motherhood so as to include the vast and complicated situations that so many families are in– including this health care situation you are describing. At the end of the day, every couple needs to do what the Spirit inspires them to do, whether it is conventional or not. As long as they truly are prioritizing their children/family, then all is well!
Here’s a great example of that– one of the new mormon.org videos!
http://mormon.org/me/3CXY
I am so grateful for a husband who had the same family planning ideas as me from the beginning! We have let Heavenly Father be in charge. It took almost a year for us to conceive after we were married, but in hindsight, the timing was perfect. I know it doesn’t work for everyone, but extended breastfeeding and bedsharing has delayed by return to fertility until my baby is around 12 months old. I think of that as natural birth control. I have read “Taking Charge of Your Fertility” and am very aware of when I ovulate. It is a humbling thing to know I am fertile and that we are leaving the decision of conception up to Heavenly Father. We often pray before having intercourse in those fertile days that His will be done.
As for health concerns, I am struggling with that myself. And, again, the timing is in God’s hands. He is watching over me and my family and He will send our next baby when the time is right. Our job is to be open to that child (and all the others!) and actively seeking His will in this matter.
Children these days are such a blessing! It is a privilege to raise the children that will be building Zion and preparing the world for the return of the Saviour. They are so hungry for the gospel and so full of love.
Thanks again Misty for your wonderful post. I hate to admit that we did use the pill when we first got married but thankfully it caused me such emotional stress I had to go off of it after a short amount of time. Besides, I really wanted kids. I only went on it because “that’s just what you did”. Since then our belief has been that the Lord knows what’s best for us and we will put our faith in Him. I have eight kids which to some may be a lot, but since we don’t use birth control I could have even more but I don’t. I know the Lord sends them to us when it’s time. I just had my eighth two months ago, and at the time I got pregnant I wasn’t very happy about it. (Because of selfish reasons) Since my Heather Rose was born, I have had some very difficult things to endure including the death of my mother. Having my little Rosebud has been my saving grace. She is my joy and I know the Lord knew what He was doing sending her to me at this time. I couldn’t have foreseen what these last months would bring and how her presence would help me find new happiness to replace my sadness, but the Lord knew. Having faith in the Lord isn’t always easy, but in the end it is always worth it.
Thank you for this post, Misty. This subject has been on my mind quite a bit lately. The end of your post was especially intriguing.
During the past few years, I have (finally) started to understand that what I want is of no importance—following the will of my Heavenly Father is all that matters. Submission to His will is the way of true happiness. If He would like me to have 15 children, then I am perfectly willing to do that, even though the thought frightens me.
Right now, I have 3 young children and confess to feeling overwhelmed sometimes. We use Natural Family Planning (NFP), and have for a few years now. My youngest just turned one, and I just don’t feel quite ready for another pregnancy yet. I would like to wait a few months longer, at least.
We have fasted and prayed and I try carefully to heed all of the promptings that come to me. I have not felt any inspiration, though, about whether or not continuing to use NFP is a righteous choice for us. NFP has a few drawbacks, and in some ways, I feel like stopping the NFP and letting the Lord “open and shut the womb” could be a great blessing in my life—it would be such a relief to know that we are not standing in the way of any more children coming, and as you can imagine, it would be nice not to have to worry about implementing NFP.
On the other hand, I wonder if that could be taking the easy way out. I believe strongly in personal revelation, and as long as I am listening to that still, small voice, I can’t imagine that I wouldn’t be told that it was time to allow another child to come. So, all in all, I feel a bit confused.
Is it ideal to practice no birth control and leave the timing in the Lord’s hands?
Or is it ideal to use NFP while being prayerful and sensitive enough to heed and obey all promptings as they come?
In some ways, I guess the answer may depend on whether on not (for faithful LDS families), having more children is always better than having fewer children.
If we never practiced NFP again, I believe that we might have many children very quickly, as my fertility returns rapidly after I give birth.
The following, from a 1993 General Conference talk by Dallin H. Oaks is something that I have been pondering lately:
“How many children should a couple have? All they can care for! Of course, to care for children means more than simply giving them life. Children must be loved, nurtured, taught, fed, clothed, housed, and well started in their capacities to be good parents themselves. Exercising faith in God’s promises to bless them when they are keeping his commandments, many LDS parents have large families. Others seek but are not blessed with children or with the number of children they desire. In a matter as intimate as this, we should not judge one another.
President Gordon B. Hinckley gave this inspired counsel to an audience of young Latter-day Saints:
‘I like to think of the positive side of the equation, of the meaning and sanctity of life, of the purpose of this estate in our eternal journey, of the need for the experiences of mortal life under the great plan of God our Father, of the joy that is to be found only where there are children in the home, of the blessings that come of good posterity. When I think of these values and see them taught and observed, then I am willing to leave the question of numbers to the man and the woman and the Lord.’”
President Hinckley’s statement gives me pause… he didn’t say to leave it up solely to the Lord, but to the couple as well.
As I mentioned earlier, this is something that I am still trying to understand. Does anyone else struggle with this thought process?
You know, it seems that many come to the marriage with the number of children predetermined. And it’s not just the wives, but the husbands as well. I’ve had many women tell me they’ve compromised with their husband on the number of children. I’ve also had many tell me that they are postponing children so that the wife can support the husband through school, or so she can get her education first.
Often times, it seems that couples aren’t bringing the Lord into their counsels…wouldn’t these situations be more of the exception than the rule if it were so?
I fear we live far beneath our blessings as…I once read a blog post by a Christian mother comparing the blessing of having children to the blessing of health, ect. Would we say, “I know health is a blessing, but I don’t want too much of it”?
Here is a portion of it…I found it intriguing…
“Good health is a blessing, but I don’t want any more. I loved the health I had, of course, but I’m done.” This is like saying, “I was happy being healthy for a few years, but now I’m looking forward to hypertension and bad knees.” Nobody would say this. Those of us who like being healthy would like to continue to be healthy for a long, long time. We’ll take all the health we can get.
“Good health is a blessing, but I think God wants us to use common sense.” You know, because going to the gym is just too expensive; and cooking fresh vegetables is too time consuming; and some families run themselves into the ground financially trying to pay for vitamins and check-ups; and I know people who are always exercising, and it takes up so much time. Being healthy is great and all, but there are a lot of other things that are way more important. This is really just saying that good health isn’t actually so important at all, or isn’t really worth sacrificing, or prioritizing, or getting creative about. If there are problems with exercising and eating well, rather than solving them because taking care of ourselves is crucial, we’d rather just use “common sense” and forget about it.
“Good health is a blessing, but we need time to establish our marriage first.”
here is the link; scroll down a bit.
http://parunak.com/pursuingtitus2/2009/02/12/blessings-but/
Children are blessings, and I’ll take all the blessings I can get… I like it! Sounds like the perfect response to “you’re pregnant AGAIN/ALREADY?!”
I’m glad I kept reading your post, because when I first saw that you said “what I want is of no importance” I felt very sad! I am certain that our Father cares about things that we want– more particularly, righteous things that we want, or “righteous desires.” The ultimate goal is not just to submit ourselves always to the Father’s will, but rather to ALIGN our will with his (I just use caps because I can’t italicize). To me, that means our will is a critical part of the process, not something to be discarded on the wayside. Which you essentially reference after mentioning President Hinckley’s statement– the number of children is up to the Lord and the couple. I’ve found that as we counsel with the Lord about timing and such, that he does take my desires into consideration. And that we actually felt impressed not to have children right away, and that as I look back I can see God’s wisdom in that. Though many women are ready to be mothers when they get married, I was not! That is why we have personal revelation; becoming parents is personal, it is eternally important. It is not something to just assume “will work out”– we need to pray and consult the Lord, and also tell him our feelings and concerns. He cares about that too. It is through that process that we can ultimately learn to align our wills with his, rather than simply be obedient forever, without learning to have righteous desires ourselves. The goal is to be like him, right?
That commercial is just sick! Satan has brainwashed us into thinking that is what life is supposed to be like. Just walk into a store and pick what you want. It’s all for sale. Then we wonder why things don’t always turn out to be the bargain we thought they were.
I’m lucky to be married to a man who adores children (especially babies) and would have twenty if we could just get them here! We’ve had our struggles with fertility and pregnancies in the past and feel so blessed to have five wonderful children so far. There are a lot more selfish ways to learn life’s lessons but I wouldn’t want to learn them any other way than raising a family up unto the Lord. People started with the rude comments during my last pregnancy (because I’m too old or have to many already or both?) but you know me well enough to know that I don’t care a bit what anyone says about our family or our life style.
I am so sad for people that aren’t able to have children. I can’t imagine a more difficult trial in life. I just wish more people could understand what they are doing when they choose to limit or postpone their family. Most of us are severely uneducated in our own religion I’m afraid.
I was waiting for you to mention the health factors of having more children. I can’t remember where I read it but it was something like, women with more children tend to live longer (along with breast feeding helping to prevent breast cancer) and the fewer menstrual cycles a woman has, the healthier she is. I’ve been thinking that we wouldn’t have to suffer through menstruation if we would just be pregnant and nursing all the time. It sounds worth it to me, ha, ha!!
Oh, I just remembered an email I got from my brother (he has the standard one boy and one girl) when I was pregnant with my fourth. It made me laugh so hard. He sent an article about Competitive Birthing and why rich women were having more children. I blogged about it here http://lazyorganizer.com/blog/?p=579
I suspect Mrs. Smith – if she sees this thread – may have some insight regarding pregnancy, nursing, and menstrual cycles. I think I can count on one hand, possibly two, the number she’s had since we’ve been married…
Ahhh yes, this has been our experience as well. Up until child #7 I had a total of four periods our whole marriage, because I was either nursing or pregnant. I know as soon as I stop nursing, the next baby is sure to come along.
I had two miscarriages between babies #7 and #8 so that messed up my ‘record’. My husband’s sisters are just waiting to see what happens when all of our girls are in the teenage years. I think their hoping that he’ll finally understand what their husbands have had to go through with all the hormonal ups and downs of PMS. I must say it hasn’t been too bad so far! Maybe because my daughters haven’t seen those ups and downs either so they don’t know that’s what’s “expected.”
@Lara, your comment about life compared to walking in a store and pick what you want reminded of what Elder Nelson said just this conference weekend in essence “Teach [your children] of faith to keep ALL the commandments of God…warn them..about the cafeteria approach to obedience. This practice of picking and choosing will not work.”
Ok, so I feel so shortchanged when it comes to nursing/menstral cycles. I exclusively breastfeed for the first six months and then nurse, nurse,nurse till way past a year… yet start my cycle when BABY IS TWO MONTHS OLD!!! Craziness which partly lead to taking a break after baby three. But I am so hoping all goes well in the near future so we can get to four and five!
I too am so jealous of those who nurse successfully and never get their periods. This for me is the reason I do use a little birth control. Because I just feel like I will shortchange one baby if i too quickly have another. Maybe I need to repent of this. One half of my family tree is full of large mormon families of 7-9 kids (all my cousins on my dad’s side) and yet their children are usually 2-3 years apart. My cousin who just had her 9th likes to quote Brigham Young who said (and I’m paraphrasing here) “9 months of pregnancy, 9 months of nursing, 9 months of rest”. Of course we should take that with a grain of salt as we should nurse for as long as we can and is good for the child and mother, but I get what he is saying here, and I appreciate it.
What’s amazing is that it IS so different for every woman – even those from the same family! My sister can’t even breastfeed her babies, and her periods start about 2 months after giving birth as well.
Baby two came along even though I was nursing my first and using non-hormone bc. Divine intervention… That’s what my midwife called it. I have to say it is very inspiring and faith building to hear everyone’s testimonies of motherhood!!
Just wanted to 2nd your “don’t judge” admonishment! It took my hubby A LOT longer than I (and he!) expected to feel comfortable bringing children into the world, because of some childhood issues. One time his sister and her husband sat me down and gave me a lecture about how it was selfish to not have kids and that it really was time to get going. I was incredulous … and of course went home and bawled for the umpteenth time over the issue. Why do we no longer believe that there are things that are none of our business?
Now, 4 kids and 13 years later, when the topic comes up, I tell people that I don’t think you should plan to wait a year before having a baby once you get married. Babies are a natural result of the expressions of marriage and should be considered part and parcel (without extenuating circumstances). Waiting a year seems to be the norm, and you are irresponsible if you don’t wait a year, especially at BYU or in the LDS world. I have yet to find an LDS audience receptive to that advice, however :/ My personal experiences have taught me this, and I tell people that I think you should be emotionally prepared to welcome children approximately 9 months after you get married. Nine months is plenty of time to adjust to married life, and besides, kids change all the relationship dynamics anyway so why try to get used to something that you may end up missing?
My husband and I learned very quickly that our “plans” or ideas were nothing compared to the will of the Lord. We talked briefly about marriage while we were dating, and decided we’d wait a year before deciding if we should “take the plunge” so it was surpriseng when we realized we should get married…especially since we hadn’t even been dating a full 3 months yet!
Even after that, we took the same approach towards having children. “Let’s just wait a year, and then if it feels right, we’ll go for it.” I began using the Nuva ring, thinking that would be my life for the next year, but it wasn’t to be. About a week before our wedding we both felt very strongly that we needed to begin our family right away. I happily threw out my ring (I hated it!) After the wedding we began trying for a baby. We were pregnant a little over a month after we were married.
Before we were married, one of my husband’s uncles gave us the advice not to wait to have children. Children are blessings and blessings come by obeying the commandment to multiply and replenish (and I can testify to the truth of this!) I give this advice to every friend and relative who is getting married now.
I thought we were on the same page, we both desire a large family, so I was saddend by my husbands hesitancy for a second (but with persuasion I got my way). He was even more nervous about a 3rd, (especially because our oldest had only barely turned 2 when I began pushing for another.) And now, when I desire another, he has put his foot down. I’m tired of pushing him. He just isn’t seeing things the way I am, even though he claims to believe in the importance of having children.
Anyway, now I am leaving it up to the Lord, as should be done. If it is His will that another come now, then it will happen.
Azeem15–
Yikes! When you just said how important it is not to be judgmental, it seems pretty harsh to make this strong statement, “you should be emotionally prepared to welcome children approximately 9 months after you get married.”
We really cannot know whether someone is ready to have children or not– and like you said yourself, it’s none of our business! It is between the couple and the Lord, period. And it’s my experience that the Lord can counsel people to wait longer than 9 months, and that some people really are not prepared at 9 months from marriage. It’s interesting to me that on this comment thread most women are very enthusiastic to believe that God can inspire people to have children immediately and without breaks, but have a hard time believing that others might feel inspired to wait, for a variety of reasons. When we say that God can inspire us, do we really mean it? Or do most women just mean that God can inspire us to have children right away, and that’s pretty much it?
Just some food for thought.
Darn it, right after clicking submit I realized I’d forgotten a couple points. Pardon my P.S.
@Kels: To answer your questions, Yes! Every couple SHOULD be emotionally prepared to welcome children 9 months after marriage, because if that is God’s will, then we should be prepared to do it. However, this training and preparation can’t begin when a person is already dating or engaged to someone; it MUST begin long before that. Otherwise you’re right, often the reality is that newlyweds aren’t “ready” for children. But does that make it right to delay pregnancy? Does expediency make it justified?
The truth is, we really CAN know whether someone is ready to have children or not, by whether they’re MARRIED or not. If a couple isn’t “ready” for children, can they really be ready for marriage? The most sacred aspect of marriage is parenting. Those aren’t my words, those are God’s.
One thing my parents have always taught me: we are free to choose, but we can’t choose consequences. A natural “consequence,” if you will, of marriage, is child-bearing. It is only by scientific intervention that such consequences can be prevented. But just because something is possible in modern society, doesn’t make it right. If a person’s ready to do a grown-up thing like get married, they’d better be ready to do grown-up things like have children and parent them. Otherwise they’re not ready to be married, and they have no business doing it.
It seems like you were concerned about being judgmental; and you’re right, we shouldn’t love anyone less because they choose to live by different standards. On the other hand, that doesn’t mean we should compromise OUR standards. I have a sacred duty to live according to the light and knowledge God has given me. There’s a difference between defending the ideal and not condemning other people who fall short (myself included). Thank God for the Atonement and repentance!
Now, you’re right about one thing: it’s not my business to “fix” everyone that makes wrong choices. I’m only posting these thoughts in public to answer your concerns. But you don’t have to listen to me, I won’t be offended at all if you ignore everything I say
However, it IS my business to see that I conduct my own life correctly, that I raise my children correctly, and if I’m ever given an ecclesiastical position of authority, to raise a warning voice and waste and wear out my life crying repentance so I don’t have their blood and sins on my hands. Because those are things I will account to God for.
Kels,
I’m not sure why, I actually posted 2 comments (it says my first comment is “awaiting moderation,” maybe my post was too long or something?), but you can only see the P.S. not the first part. And the P.S. part would probably make a lot more sense if you could also see the first part. So, I’ll maybe try to post a condensed version of the first part, to respond to your questions.
Actually, first of all, I should clarify: I’m guessing that most people who visit this site are women; I am not
so I’m not a wife and mother, I’m a husband and father. My wife feels very similarly to me about everything I’ll post here, we’ve prayerfully studied, pondered, and discussed this topic much.
From here, I’m just going to copy/paste a condensed version of my original post, and then go on from there.
“After marriage young wives should be occupied in bearing and rearing children. I know of no scriptures or authorities which authorize young wives to delay their families or to go to work to put their husbands through college. Young married couples can make their way and reach their educational heights, if they are determined.
Our young people should realize, as quoted from President J. Reuben Clark, Jr.:
“There is some belief, too much I fear, that sex desire is planted in us solely for the pleasures of full gratification; that the begetting of children is only an unfortunate incident. The direct opposite is the fact. Sex desire was planted in us in order to be sure that bodies would be begotten to house the spirits; the pleasures of gratification of the desire is an incident, not the primary purpose of the desire.” And then he says further:
“As to sex in marriage, the necessary treatise on that for Latter-day Saints can be written in two sentences: Remember the prime purpose of sex desire is to beget children. Sex gratification must be had at that hazard. You husbands: be kind and considerate of your wives. They are not your property; they are not mere conveniences; they are your partners for time and eternity.” (Conference Report, General Priesthood Conference, October 1949, pp. 194-195.) ” – Pres. Kimball
“In a properly charted Latter-day Saint marriage, one must be conscious of the need to forget self and love one’s companion more than self. There will not be postponement of parenthood, but a desire for children as the Lord intended, and without limiting the family as the world does.” -Pres. Kimball
“… “Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.” (Genesis 1:28.) The Lord does not waste words. He meant what he said. You did not come on earth just to “eat, drink, and be merry.” You came knowing full well your responsibilities. You came to get for yourself a mortal body which could become perfected and immortalized, and you understood that you were to act in partnership with God in providing bodies for other spirits equally anxious to come to the earth for righteous purposes. And so you will not postpone parenthood. There will be rationalists who will name to you numerous reasons for postponement. Of course, it will be harder to get your college degrees or your financial starts with a family, but strength like yours will be undaunted in the face of difficult obstacles. Have your family as the Lord intended. Of course it is expensive, but you will find a way, and besides, it is often those children who grow up with responsibility and hardships who carry on the world and its work. And do not limit your family as the world does.
Don’t think you will love the later ones less or have fewer material things for them. Perhaps, like Jacob, you might love the eleventh one most. Young folk, have your family, love them, sacrifice for them, teach them righteousness, and you will be blessed and happy all the days of your eternal lives. ” -Pres. Kimball
“We believe in following the admonition of the Lord in having large families and rearing them righteously. We hope that our Latter-day Saints will not trade children for accommodation and luxury.
When you go to the temple for sealing, you will note that the Lord continues to command his people to live this commandment. It is not easy. It is much easier to limit the family to one or two, but great blessings come to those who struggle through the years with the small children. When they have reared them righteously, they will have crowns throughout eternity. The time will come when those men and women who have neglected their duties because they wanted luxuries will be very jealous of the joys and happiness of those who sacrificed in the early years of marriage. Certainly we do not just wish to bring children in the world and turn them loose to go wild. We must rear them in righteousness. Generally, you will find that the people that come from the large families are generally the best trained and the most faithful. ” -Pres. Kimball
“Women who are deliberately childless will regret it. I am not sorry for women who sacrifice their lives for children. I am not sorry for those women who have many children. But I am sorry … for women who come to the Judgment Day who have never assumed the responsibility of rearing children, who have been afraid of pain, resistant to sacrifice. They are the ones whose hearts will be heavy.” -Pres. Kimball
“Supreme happiness in marriage is governed considerably by a primary factor — that of the bearing and rearing of children. Too many young people set their minds, determining they will not marry or have children until they are more secure, until the military service period is over; until the college degree is secured; until the occupation is more well-defined; until the debts are paid; or until it is more convenient. They have forgotten that the first commandment is to “be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it.” (Genesis 1:28.) And so brides continue their employment and husbands encourage it, and contraceptives are used to prevent conception. Relatives and friends and even mothers sometimes encourage birth control for their young newlyweds. But the excuses are many, mostly weak. The wife is not robust; the family budget will not feed extra mouths; or the expense of the doctor, hospital, and other incidentals is too great; it will disturb social life; it would prevent two salaries; and so abnormal living prevents the birth of children. The Church cannot approve nor condone the measures which so greatly limit the family.
How do you suppose that the Lord would look upon a man and a woman whose marriage seems to be largely for the purpose of living together and sex gratification without the responsibilities of marriage? How do you think that the Lord looks upon those who use the contraceptives because in their selfish life it is not the convenient moment to bear children? How do you feel the Lord looks upon those who would trade flesh-and-blood children for pianos or television or furniture or an automobile, and is this not actually the case when people will buy these luxuries and yet cannot afford to have their children? Are there not numerous people who first buy the luxury article and then find they cannot pay the doctor or a hospital bill incident to childbirth? How do you think the Lord feels about women who forgo the pleasures and glories of motherhood that they might retain their figures, that their social life might not be affected, that they might avoid the deprivations, pains, and agonies of childbearing and birthing? How do you think the Lord feels as he views healthy parents who could have children but who deliberately close the doors by operation or by contraceptives, close the doors upon spirits eager to enter into mortal bodies? ” -Pres. Kimball
“We marry for eternity. We are serious about this. We become parents and bring wanted children into the world and rear and train them to righteousness. We are aghast at the reports of young people going to surgery to limit their families and the reputed number of parents who encourage this vasectomy. Remember that the coming of the Lord approaches, and some difficult-to-answer questions will be asked by a divine Judge who will be hard to satisfy with silly explanations and rationalizations. He will judge justly, you may be sure.”
“I remember the counsel of our beloved prophet Spencer W. Kimball to married students. He said: “I have told tens of thousands of young folks that when they marry they should not wait for children until they have finished their schooling and financial desires. . . . They should live together normally and let the children come. . . .” – Pres. Benson, Conference Oct 1987
Now, all that being said, God will never force a single couple to do that which they don’t want to do. All I can do is testify that when God gives us a commandment, He prepares the way for us to obey. My wife and I, as we courted, found a common desire to never delay having children or limit them at any point (which was one of many things that attracted me to her and eventually led to my proposal of marriage). After our wedding, on the way to our honeymoon in fact, we prayed that if we needed any time before having children, that we would leave that in God’s hands, but let His will be done. If we had to wait a year before being able to conceive, so be it and we’d trust His timing. If, however, our first child needed to be born 9 months into marriage, then we’d trust Him to provide the things necessary to properly provide for and care for the child. As it turned out, our daughter was born about 14 months after our wedding, and she’s 13 months old now. It’s possible for God to space children, because we are living proof! We “waited” 5 months for our first pregnancy, and so far we’ve “waited” 13 months for our second. Our daughter has brought more joy and growth in our lives than anything else ever could (not humanitarian trips abroad, graduate studies, or any earthly wealth). The Lord’s timing is perfect. Let us seek His wisdom, by searching the writings of His prophets. Let us increase our faith.
[end of first post]
I’ve tried to (as perfectly as possible) base my conclusions completely on the scriptures and the words of modern prophets (and I absolutely REJECT the fallacy that words spoken by prophets 20 years ago have “expired,” or that they no longer apply). Church policy has changed significantly over the years and centuries; some are inspired changes to better meet the needs of members (i.e. needs of members worldwide as opposed to simply members residing in Utah).
But other changes are more a tragic reflection of the unwillingness of members to be humble and hearken to counsel we’ve been given. “… he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.
11And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction.” -Alma 12:10-11
While I am completely supportive of the Church leadership and their inspired direction in governing a worldwide church membership, I do NOT believe there is any discrepancy between counsel given 20 years ago and counsel given 20 hours ago. What might at first glance appear contradictory can perhaps be better understood if we remember that God first gave Moses the higher law, but because Israel would not receive it they were instead given the lesser law. That doesn’t mean that the higher law wasn’t God’s will, just that the people professing His name wouldn’t submit to it!
Likewise, just because a liberal interpretation of current Church policy may seem to allow for things such as postponement of child-bearing or use of contraceptives by “leaving it up to the couple,” DOESN’T mean that such practices are pleasing to God.
The purpose of this forum (if I understand Misfit Cygnet correctly) is not to settle for the bare minimum requirements and wait to be commanded in all things before we act, but to REJECT and root out from us that tendency to think “all is well in Zion, yea Zion prospereth!” on our way to hell. If we wait to do righteous things until Pres. Monson explicitly counsels us to, we are unfit for Celestial glory (see True to the Faith, “degrees of glory”). We might not get excommunicated from the general assembly of the church, but we cannot be numbered among the Church of the Firstborn.
I know that not all are seeking what I seek. I know that not all desire what I desire. And that’s ok. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord, and “do many things of (our) own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness;” A great place I’ve found to start looking for ways I can purify my life is to prayerfully and carefully study the words of ALL prophets, ancient (even Pres. Kimball) and modern, and look for ways to live a higher law, regardless of whether it’s currently “required” or not. But because “There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
21And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.” Blessings can only be received when we obey the laws upon which they’re predicated. I don’t want MY disobedience to prevent the Lord from giving me ANYTHING. I need God’s blessings, I am lost without them; so no matter the cost, I will obey. And repent when I fall short. But my resolve is to never rest until the perfect day.
Vash, I need to respectfully say that while I appreciate the ideal that you are presenting, some other things ought to be considered.
Every couple SHOULD be prepared to welcome children, however, due to the wickedness of men, the prevalence of pornography and abuse, this sometimes just doesn’t happen.
For example, I know a young woman who married a wonderful returned missionary, zone leader, son of a very active family, dad was the branch president, mom Relief Society president, lovely family. He seemed perfect. Everyone loved him. They were destined for happiness. This young woman prayed about her decision to marry this young man, and the Spirit confirmed that it was acceptable.
However, within weeks after the temple wedding, the young woman discovered, to her horror, that her husband was addicted to pornography, and had many, many problems. This young man had fooled everyone, and was abusive. Would this couple be ready in 9 months to have a baby? Probably not. Would the baby be safe? Probably not. In this situation, there might be room for the exception–the couple might wait so that the husband can enter a 12 step program, or seek some other solution.
Many good, honest people do not understand the prevalence of abuse, nor the pain of recovery. Another example would be a young man who had been sexually abused as a child. Having gone through counseling, and applying the Atonement to provide peace from the sins placed upon him by another, this young man grows up to be exemplary. He is ready for marriage and a family. However, after the temple wedding, many of the previous wounds and problems surface, simply as a natural result of this new step in his life. It may take more than nine months for this young man to truly be emotionally healthy enough to have children. There was no way he could have foreseen how the intimacy of marriage would affect him, as he had no way to go through it ahead of time. There is no real way to predict how survivors of abuse will respond to certain situations like these, and in that case, a longer period of time before children is sometimes merciful.
As a matter of fact, the young lady I mentioned did get pregnant before she understood the extent of her husband’s problems. She believed in not using birth control. She had the baby, and the young man divorced her. Everything worked out in the end, and she was blessed with an honorable, extraordinary husband and family within a few years. However, the pain and agony of single motherhood was real. Some people are not equipped physically or emotionally to handle these kinds of things. They are excruciating.
Just something to keep in mind.
When I used the word “liberal,” I meant “broad,” not any sort of political connotation. Sorry for any confusion.
Thank you for posting your response, Misfit. I value your perspective and compassion. My wife and mom frequently caution me against coming off too strong… sorry for any offense I may have caused.
I was very sincere in describing what I believe is ideal, and tried to lay a doctrinal foundation for my conclusions. However, you’re absolutely right, we live in a fallen world. Therefore, I see two options: one, accommodate AFTER marriage for the less than ideal circumstances by, in some cases, temporarily postponing having children; or two, don’t get married until we’re ready to handle the responsibility of parenthood. While I tried to make a case for the second option, not everyone makes that choice, and that’s fine; it’s between them and the Lord. You brought up a great point, though: what about the effects of past (childhood) abuse which become triggered after marital relations? I’d honestly never considered this before; I’m grateful my wife and I haven’t had to deal with that specific burden. But for those who have, I can definitely see how God might inspire a couple to work through dealing with the consequences of past sins and offenses before assuming the full responsibilities of parenthood, no fault to the couple. I’m sorry for my former comments which appear to trivialize or ignore such real suffering. I’m grateful that no matter what the circumstances, though, the Savior stands ready and able to support and sustain us all, if we come to Him.
And P.S., you don’t know what true love is until you see your hubby making your baby giggle!
Sometimes I wish everyone was able to have the same experience my husband and I did when we were married. Pres. Hinckley performed the sealing and gave wonderful advice, especially about making sure to keep the commandment to multiple and replenish the earth. When you are married in the temple you make the solemn covenant to do that. Preventing it, especially at the beginning of marriage, is going against that covenant that you made. The whole plan of salvation, the plan of happiness, is provided so that we can have a family now in mortal life, and in the eternities. Any choices we make to stop our family from growing here in mortality will affect our lives in the hereafter.
I take comfort in knowing that we will not only be judged according to our works but also the desires of our hearts (D&C 137:9) . For the most part those desires are shown in our actions, as Elder Oaks taught on Saturday, but there are times when those desires stay just that, desires, as is the case with those unable to have children for various physical reasons.
“God thus takes into merciful account not only our desires and our performance, but also the degrees of difficulty which our varied circumstances impose upon us. No wonder we will not complain at the final judgment. . God delights in blessing us, especially when we realize “joy in that which [we] have desired” (D&C 7:8).” (Elder Neal A. Maxwell, Ensign, Nov. 1996)
As for the use of birth control or sterilization (vasectomies, tubes tied, etc) most people, as Lara pointed out, “are severely uneducated in our own religion.” They do it because it is “what people do” without taking into account that it may be one of the foolish traditions of our fathers. The church’s stance on birth control has already been quoted. Its stance on sterilization is:
“The Church strongly discourages surgical sterilization as an elective form of birth control. Surgical sterilization should be considered only if (1) medical conditions seriously jeopardize life or health or (2) birth defects or serious trauma have rendered a person mentally incompetent and not responsible for his or her actions. Such conditions must be determined by competent medical judgment and in accordance with law. Even then, the persons responsible for this decision should consult with each other and with their bishop and should receive divine confirmation of their decision through prayer.”
It really is too bad that more Latter-day Saints do not truly understand the importance of our bodies and being partners with God in bringing more of His spirit children to the earth. They are caught up with the “here and now” and forget that there is a hereafter that is affected by what they do here.
My husband had a vascetomy a few months after our 5th child was born. Honestly I will admit that we did it more because of social/family pressure than anything else. We did not pray about it, fast about it, or search the advice from modern prophets on the subject. We just did it, we had a big family, it was time to raise our children, and EVERYONE we knew was doing it. (When I say everyone, I mean it, I can count on both hands the number of friends that I know that have had a vascetomy).
After the procedure both my husband and I knew what we had done was wrong. That was when we started to pray and search and I was shocked when I found out what the church says about surgical sterilization. At the time it was burried (not any more) in the Bishop’s handbook, not something that is easy to find unless you specifically ask your Bishop what the church says about it. I was pretty upset that the church isn’t talking about this more. I later learned that with a little more digging I could have found out what other prophets had said on the subject and would have know.
Anyway, I am rambling….
Once my husband and I started to talk about it, fast and pray we decided to have a reversal done. It took a little time to find the right Dr and save the money, (we went to a Dr in OK that does it as his life’s mission for a very low price) in August we had the reversal done, by October I was pregnant and we are expecting our 5th daughter (6th child) in July and I couldn’t be happier! I love our blessings and we are open to many more. There may come a time when it is prudent to prevent pregnancy, but that decision will come with much prayer and fasting, however, I will never, ever, ever close my own womb forever.
We had the same thing done with the same doctor! It took us a lot longer to realize our mistake, but the doctor said that even after 5 years (that’s how long we waited) we would have a 90% chance of having it work. Congratulations!!!!
I think you are both wonderful examples of learning and choosing to correct whatever you can! I don’t know how many times I’ve learned new things while studying and then realize “If only I had known this sooner, I wouldn’t have done ——(fill in the blank).” Life’s a never ending lesson on seeing our mistakes. And thank goodness we have the opportunity, for the most part, to try and fix them.
Momzoo, I know how excited you all are with upcoming arrival of your baby girl. She’s definitely going to know how loved and special she is to your family!
Jennie, best wishes on your journey!
Thank you for speaking out on this issue, Misty! I have dear friends and family whose hearts YEARN for more babies, and yet they struggle with infertility, miscarriages, and hurtful comments from others. It makes me so sad!
On the flipside, my husband and I have eleven children, and I just miscarried our twelfth. Did I tell ANYONE we were expecting, or that we just lost a pregnancy? No way. I’ve stopped telling people when I am expecting because I don’t enjoy being lectured or put down.
Was I excited to be pregnant? I’m sad to say I was dreading the comments that I knew would be coming. (My baby is only 9 months old. Yeah, my cycle kicks in right away, too, despite breastfeeding.)
Did I cry when I knew I was losing the pregnancy? Yes. I love babies so much. I love having so many sweet faces and smiles around me. I LOVE being in partnership with the Lord to raise a righteous posterity to His name. I’ve been told by the spirit in the temple that “There will be twelve,” so I am trying to stay in tune and go with the Lord’s timing.
I believe that society’s (and modern LDS!) opinions about birthing and rearing children is a huge indication of our faith– or lack thereof– in our Father in Heaven’s plans for our lives and families. If we don’t believe that God is great enough to “be our birth control”, as Misty so beautifully expressed, than what do we believe in, exactly?
When I was a young child being raised in the Church, I remember the Brethren placing a high value on inviting children into families. Yet, I remember even back then the distaste and judging that went on in our ward about “the big, poor family” whose kids were dressed more humbly and whose mom always seemed to be pregnant. They were seen as less than everyone else. And I can still remember my own sneering child thoughts about them and their family. Oh, how I see them with new eyes now!!!
Fast forward to today, and I have been told to my face by members of our own Church “You’re CRAZY!” or “Don’t you know what causes that?!” The ultrasound technician who checked me the other day even told me to tell my husband (who was sitting there with me!) to “keep that thing to himself.” *!* (No, that “gentleman” was not LDS.)
I am so sad to hear so many people around me (including extended family members) who make the decision to severely limit their families for selfish reasons and talk about how they “don’t want any more!” even within the earshot of the one or two children they have. They get sterilized without thought, prayer, or counsel with their Bishops. And then they turn and revile my choices and the size of my family.
I’m sorry to say I find much more support for large families among the Evangelical Christian people I know than I do among my own brothers and sisters in the Gospel. Surely this ought not to be!
Anyhoo, now I’m just rambling. But I want to again thank Misty for addressing this topic. It is a difficult thing to be a mother of many in this day and age, but I wouldn’t have it any other way! I feel soooo blessed to be surrounded by so many of God’s sons and daughters in my own home. I am so grateful for a husband who has the same goals and feelings I do about raising a righteous posterity! I have had many women– and men!– tell me with tears in their eyes how much they wish their spouses felt the same as they do about the purpose of procreative powers, and would want to welcome children into their family circles.
I can testify that there is no greater work in God’s kingdom than the role of Mother and Father. Thank goodness for Sister Beck and her admonishment to teach our families about the “Doctrine of the Family!” We are striving to do just that in our home and family circle.
(I hope all is going well for you and this pregnancy, Misty! You remain in my prayers!)
Hugs,
Mama Rachel
This was so beautiful, thank you! I feel truly sad that people in our own religion are the ones making it so difficult for you. It’s one thing to come to the conclusion that you cannot have any more (whether or not that’s true) but it is truly wrong and pathetic to deride others for following the counsel of the prophets and the Lord. These are people that are feeling guilty for their own choices, I would imagine. I think you are amazing!
Thanks, Megan– you’re so sweet!
I’m sorry for the emotional whining, everyone. Hormones, ya know!
I have lots of thoughts on this-great post by the way!
When we were first married I was on the pill, but I hated it so after just three months I went off it. We then used plain old condoms-which I think worked without fail because it was not the right time for a baby. I will never use the pill again, before I even read your info about the health effects I was uncomfortable with messing about with my hormones, there’s just so much we don’t understand about how they work it always made me nervous.
Our first baby just arrived a little over two weeks ago-and the timing was perfect. I was in the right place with my testimony of the gospel and especially motherhood. My husband finally has a job that can support us all without me supplementing the income in anyway, and he knows what he wants to do with his life career wise.
When we finally decided it was time to have a baby I conceived literally a week later. I think Heavenly Father was waiting for us to get to the right place, and I know we could have gotten there sooner. I regret a lot of things over the past four years-but my biggest is not having had a baby sooner.
I love the idea of inviting Heavenly Father to open and close the womb. I’m not sure I have enough faith to do that though. When we were engaged we arbitrarily decided on 4 children-but now I want more. My husband still doesn’t, but we haven’t really prayed or fasted about it yet. I really just want to have the number of children Heavenly Father wants me to-whatever that number may be.
I think the reason the church changed from counseling us to have lots of children to saying it’s between the couple and the Lord was out of compassion for the ever increasing rates of infertile couples. It is NOT a statement for the justification of prevention, but rather an injunction to avoid judging one another-which is an entirely different matter.
I also think many couples only pray for confirmation of their decision TO have a child-never over the decision NOT to. (personally that’s what we did) And even if you get a no, that might be just for that point in time, not a command to stop completely.
Until I gained a testimony of motherhood I looked down on women who had large families, or babies in quick succession. I think we need to make sure our daughters gain a testimony of motherhood, and if we are in a position in RS to influence meetings to work on helping the sisters in our wards gain a testimony of their role as mother. The world as been SO successful destroying the LDS perspective on motherhood we really need to fight back.
Thank you for sharing, Kimberly. I certainly have regrets, too, and am grateful for a patient Father that allows His Son’s grace to take care of our poor choices, when we permit. Yay!
I don’t think the Church has changed its counsel from lots of children; it has always been marriage partners’ joint decision with the Lord’s partnership. I think, though, the focus has been shifted to emphasize our need for partnership and revelation in marriage and all other aspects of individual and family life. The Lord still wants us to have the largest family possible, as Elder Oaks noted above.
When we consider the tremendous blessings to which we have access – though we sadly fail to claim many of those privileges as was noted again in last week’s Conference, myself included – it only makes sense the Lord wants us to maximize our posterity so they can be raised by, and in, a loving family that will afford them the greatest opportunities and blessings also.
Your comments reminded me of this quote by Brigham Young:
“There are multitudes of pure and holy spirits waiting to take tabernacles, now what is our duty?–To prepare tabernacles for them; to take a course that will not tend to drive those spirits into the families of the wicked, where they will be trained in wickedness, debauchery, and every species of crime. It is the duty of every righteous man and woman to prepare tabernacles for all the spirits they can” (Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 197).
As quoted by President Benson in his fireside “To the Mothers in Zion”. full text here:
http://fc.byu.edu/jpages/ee/w_etb87.htm
I’ve always thought about the reverse of that; if we were all having as many children as we were able– if the Lord wouldn’t pour down more blessings on us as a whole? If some children who may have had to come to a less than optimal existance would instead be able be born within the bonds of marriage and under the covenant?
I think the change will come as we bring the Lord back into our counsels regarding the timing and numbers of our children, along with looking for the counsels of the prophets on the matter, (as Misty has so beautifully expressed) and as we teach our children the doctrine of the family, as Sister Beck has asked us to do.
I can sympathize with those that don’t get a break from their cycle while their nursing because I have always started mine again two months after giving birth. I was so much healthier before getting pregnant with my fifth child that I really felt like my cycle wouldn’t start as soon and I was right. He’s five months old now and it hasn’t started yet.
I don’t know if that could help anyone else but maybe if you changed your diet you would have a longer natural break between babies. Just a thought.
The way to have a bigger break between babies, meaning, lactational amenorrhea (no fertility), is to follow the Seven Standards of Ecological Breastfeeding, as provided by Jennifer with the link below. When I have followed them, except for taking a nap daily with my baby (it sounds luscious but I’ve had a hard time taking a nap every day when the baby naps, I would rather write or do a project) I have had my periods delayed up to 14 months postpartum. Some people don’t have to follow them all, some people have to follow every one! I don’t think diet has much to do with it.
I just came across this summary of rules for ecological breastfeeding. http://nfpandmore.org/The%20Seven%20Standards%20Summary.pdfThis is what I have done and the earliest I have had my fertility return is 11.5 months.
I just blogged about similar ideas. It occurred to me a few years ago how sad it is that most women think of fertility as something to turn on and off instead of something to let flow. If we had an environment that was totally mother and baby friendly, and better health, then we could just let our fertility flow like the seasons of a tree does. Here’s my blog post treeoflifemothering.ning.com/profiles/blogs/why-stop-being-fruitful-now-i
Thank you for all your wonderful direction. I have four wonderful children who are growing quickly. I was divorced nearly 10 years ago and my presemt husband and I have been married 8 years. He has 3 children from his first marriage.My husband was married previously and had a vasectomy 19 years ago because he was tired of being cheated on and wanted to know that any more children were not his. We would love to have some together , but have not had a reversal done due to the expense and that the doctor told him a reversal probably would not work., but I would love to find out more about this doctor and see what his views are. I wonder often how many little ones
who aren’t in our home should be.
Thank You!
Cami, e-mail me at momzoo211 @ gmail.com and I will forward you the information for the Dr that did our reversal.
Here is another great quote from Elder Oaks that corroborates my points from above:
“A desire to follow a prophet is surely a great and appropriate strength, but even this has its potentially dangerous manifestations. I have heard of more than one group so intent on following the words of a dead prophet that they have rejected the teachings and counsel of the living ones. Satan has used that corruption from the beginning of the Restoration. . . . Following the prophet is a great strength, but it needs to be consistent and current, lest it lead to the spiritual downfall that comes from rejecting continuous revelation. Under that principle, the most important difference between dead prophets and living ones is that those who are dead are not here to receive and declare the Lord’s latest words to his people. If they were [alive], there would be no differences among the messages of the prophets.
“A related distortion is seen in the practice of those who select a few sentences from the teachings of a prophet and use them to support their political agenda or other personal purposes. In doing so, they typically ignore the contrary implications of other prophetic words, or even the clear example of the prophet’s own actions. For example, I have corresponded with several Church members who sought to use something President Ezra Taft Benson was quoted as saying as a basis for refusing to file an income tax return or to pay income taxes. I have tried to persuade these persons that their interpretation cannot be what President Benson intended, because all who have held that sacred office, as well as all of the other General Authorities, have faithfully filed their income tax returns and paid the taxes required by law. . . . To wrest the words of a prophet to support a private agenda, political or financial or otherwise, is to try to manipulate the prophet, not to follow him”
Dallin H. Oaks, “Our Strengths Can Become Our Downfall,” Liahona, 1995, May
Well, speaking as the mother of 5 beautiful, adopted children, I can tell you that we are taught that Heavenly Father has a plan, for each family, for a reason! :0) Our family is exactly as Heavenly Father meant it to be! This knowledge has been such a strength to our family! We are preparing to adopt our 6th child, and then feel that our family will be complete.
( If we feel otherwise, we’ll pursue future adoptions.) I am grateful for my testimony of eternal families, and the knowledge that Heavenly Father puts families together in many ways! Because a few of our children have special needs, and also because they are so close in age, I too get told “You’re Crazy!” or “You have your hands full!”, by many people, including people in my ward! I always tell them I wouldn’t have my hands full of anything else, but my wonderful children, whom I adore, but secretly, it bothers both my husband and me, when people say that! The other thing that people say, that bothers me, is “What a saint you are, to take on all of those kids!” While I know that some of them mean well, I honestly can’t believe that they would speak of my children as “lucky to be saved”, especially not right in front of them. I always tell these people, that my children saved me! :0) Just yesterday, a lady at a museum asked me if my husband and I get away by ourselves very often. That question always bugs me. I told her that we don’t get away very often, because we are most happy when are with our family! The world keeps getting priorities backwards, and thinks that a family is a drudgery and that we “deserve a break” from them every so often. I know, that family is what it’s all about!
Wow, this has been a very interesting discussion. I am a man and single at that, but I just wanted to say that I’m grateful for the variety of opinions expressed. It has always been my desire to immediately start raising children once I am married, as that is the council I always heard from the prophets. I can see however that while doing so might be the general rule, that in this day there can be various reasons for legitimate exceptions.
I thought the reference to the handbook of instructions seems to instruct us to not judge each others decisions rather than define an officialy “neutral” doctrinal position. I would hate to be denided a temple recommend or even be looked upon as unfaithful by other saints if the Lord were to inspire my family to wait! It is defiantly a private matter and I wouldn’t want to be seen as telling others what to do, but even I I’m not blessed to immediately begin raising children, I think I would still advocate not putting it off in general.
I know my own sister was embarrassed to tell me she was pregnant after only a few months for fear of reciving disapproval! I don’t know what terrible influences caused her to think it was bad, but I told her I was proud is het and my brother in law for having the faith and courage (and inspiration) to not wait.
Great comments!
Misfit Cygnet, I’m glad you hopped in.
It seems there may be some confusion about what I am communicating (maybe I’m not doing a good job
. I am NOT advocating for birth control. The only thing I am advocating for is that we follow the current counsel of the Church, and leave the decision of when and how many children to have between each couple and the Lord. Calling others to repentance is appropriate, when you have stewardship over them, but in this case the appropriate application would not be to call couples to repentance by telling them when and how many children to have. Rather, it would be to “call couples to repentance” by advocating that they always seek God’s inspiration regarding family planning, and follow it obediently. I appreciate your frank discussion of birth control in the post above, and think it contributes to what is appropriate “calling to repentance.” You specifically referenced that it is a decision between God and the couple, but gave points to consider in that process. What I took issue with were the other comments below your post that made specific allegations as to when couples should have children, disregarding the counsel that it is between God and the couple.
I think this quote from Elder Oaks sums up my sentiments well:
“A desire to follow a prophet is surely a great and appropriate strength, but even this has its potentially dangerous manifestations. I have heard of more than one group so intent on following the words of a dead prophet that they have rejected the teachings and counsel of the living ones. Satan has used that corruption from the beginning of the Restoration. . . . Following the prophet is a great strength, but it needs to be consistent and current, lest it lead to the spiritual downfall that comes from rejecting continuous revelation. Under that principle, the most important difference between dead prophets and living ones is that those who are dead are not here to receive and declare the Lord’s latest words to his people. If they were [alive], there would be no differences among the messages of the prophets. “
Wow, there are a lot of comments on here. I don’t have time to read them all, and I’m not yet done reading this post, but I just had to say that I HATE that beyaz commercial. Whenever I see it, it just makes me sick. But it is a great illustration of the false ideas that are out there being perpetuated in the world about motherhood and having babies.
How many children one has is strictly between the couple and the Lord.
I don’t really concern myself with the judgments of others.
I have three children who I worked really hard to have and who I work really hard to maintain. I love them with all my heart, mind, and soul.
I would love to have more, but I have not received a spiritual confirmation that this is to be so. I have actually received the opposite answer. Instead of being sad about this, (or beating myself up for not being stronger, healthier, or a better, more righteous woman!) I am celebrating the great blessing of having children at all, 3 beautiful children, who I can call my own.
I am so happy that the Lord has blessed me with them and trusted me to take them through this life. And I in return will trust Him to guide me in whether or not I should have or am capable of having more.
Thanks for this post!
The perfect heart for God’s will. “Willing and happy to have as many as the Lord would have you/need you to have. And content whether the answer is 2 or 10.”
Spot on with the law of consecration– it is still in effect, particularly in the context of the temple. Likewise, the command to multiply and replenish the earth is in effect (which is complemented by the current church statement which clarifies that obedience to that law is fulfilled within marriage based on personal revelation to the couple through God). Polygamy, however, was straightforwardly taken away. To me this implies that it is not an eternal truth (all truths restored will not be taken away… thus logic leads….). The best insight I ever gained to the practice of polygamy can be read here: http://squaretwo.org/Sq2ArticleCasslerPolygamy.html.
Further, polygamy was never restored as a commandment for the whole church– it was a select sacrifice required of certain people, which is in fact the way it always was. It was never a full “truth,” required of all people.
Great discussion, I’m glad we’ve been able to be civil and understanding.
Thank you Kels for sharing that link. I read through that article and it seems very logical and makes a lot of sense. I have always been worried that polygamy was the “higher” law, and that someday we would have to live it. Now, I do not think that is the case. Polygamy was the “Abrahamic sacrifice” some were called to bear. Thank goodness for the “Ram in the Thicket!”
I’m so glad it was helpful! It made a huge difference for me as well– I had similar concerns. And who knew, all along the answer was right there in the scriptures. I should have known
.
I was in my middle 30s when I got married. I had two children but the pregnancies were very difficult and hard on my health. Therefore I had to have my tubes tied and I did this after prayer and fasting. So each person’s situation is different.
My above comment was aimed @ kels, just want to make sure that was understood. Also, I hope that all made sense? Sometimes I struggle with stringing words together into understandable sentences… :\
Sorry, I posted a reply above on accident, but I’ll post it down here too:
I commend you for your desires Vash. I think maybe we’re not so different, though perhaps we use different methods. I’m most interested in obeying the counsel of leaders/scriptures, and obtaining personal revelation (especially in cases where the church counsel is to proceed by obtaining personal revelation, as in this case). I noticed that you didn’t address any of the points I made. You largely ignored my points, and just quoted President Kimball. That is fine, but I disagree with your statement that some Church policy “changes are more a tragic reflection of the unwillingness of members to be humble and hearken to counsel we’ve been given.” That may have been true during the dark ages, but not during the last dispensation of time. You used the example of Moses– good example, but it is not the pattern for our time. The prophets have been clear that any truths given now will not be taken away again, and that as we get closer to the second coming, we will get more revelation and insights– not less. The prophets are not going to accommodate the wickedness of men, as you suggest. They will not back down on a truth if they have established it already in this dispensation (ie: marriage is between a man and a woman, period). You might give the example of the law of consecration being taken away after it being restored, but it wasn’t taken away. We still covenant to do it– it’s just not instituted by the Church at this point. However the doctrine on that covenant is as clear today as it was before. Therefore, the prophets really speak true when they say that no truths will be taken away during this last dispensation.
I agree that that it is not true that the words spoken by prophets 20 years ago have “expired” necessarily, however I do follow the statement of the church regarding how we can decide what is doctrine and what is not (http://newsroom.lds.org/article/approaching-mormon-doctrine).
* “Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.
* Some doctrines are more important than others and might be considered core doctrines. For example, the precise location of the Garden of Eden is far less important than doctrine about Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice. The mistake that public commentators often make is taking an obscure teaching that is peripheral to the Church’s purpose and placing it at the very center. This is especially common among reporters or researchers who rely on how other Christians interpret Latter-day Saint doctrine.”
Clearly, not every statement from every apostle and prophet ever stated is doctrine, and things change over time (blacks and the priesthood, countless other examples). As stated in the Church link from above, “Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine.” I think the question in our case is whether the statements made by President Kimball are doctrine? Or more specifically, are they GREATER than the current counsel of the church, which is that the decisions about children are between a couple and God? Based on this clear statement from the church, they are not.
So where is Mormon doctrine to be found? You will find Mormon doctrine in the standard works as repeated in statements that are in official Church publications and which are found consistently in those publications over time—and that time must include the present. President Kimball’s statements were singular to his ministry– they are not being stated currently, and the scriptures are not explicit in that regard (see the quote from Elder Samuelson in the previous comment). MOST IMPORTANTLY, the current church statement regarding the decision to have children is not consistent with his statements. Therefore, we can conclude that doctrine regarding the choice of how many and when to have children is the most current statement, which is consistent with the other sources of doctrine: “The decision as to how many children to have and when to have them is extremely intimate and private and should be left between the couple and the Lord. Church members should not judge one another in this matter.”
One additional point, you said “just because a liberal interpretation of current Church policy may seem to allow for things such as postponement of child-bearing or use of contraceptives by “leaving it up to the couple,” DOESN’T mean that such practices are pleasing to God.” The current statement in the handbook is not some “liberal interpretation”– it is doctrine, as we just established. It is what the prophets are consistently saying, it is the official church statement. Additionally, you are not reading carefully enough: it is left up to the couple and GOD, not just the couple. There is a HUGE difference there. And because you presume to call others to repentance (when even our current prophets do not), you presume to take the place of God. The doctrine cannot be more clear: the decisions about children are between the couple and God. That means the husband, wife, and God. Not the husband, wife, and Vash who already can tell them what God’s will is. This is the basic principle of personal revelation.
I don’t question your personal insights for you and your wife. Certainly, it sounds that you have been inspired by God to welcome children to your family right now. That is right, because it was between the two of you and God. I hope you will respect others and offer them the same courtesy, rather than making judgment calls about how they should live their lives, when our current prophet himself states that it is between them and God.
I really don’t have anything else to say about this– I imagine we’ll agree to disagree. I probably won’t add any comments after this, but I hope I was able to communicate myself clearly and respectfully.
Kels, thank you for your opinion.
The doctrine of Christ is stated pretty clearly in the Book of Mormon:
You stated:
The prophets and apostles do call people to repentance. This is their job. We are also commanded to call people to repentance within our stewardship, especially within our families. Calling each other to repentance is one of the most supreme acts of love we can give, not a presumption to take the place of God. We are commanded to judge between good and evil and to take a stand, including calling our loved ones (and especially ourselves!) to repentance.
Every specific thing the prophets and apostles counsel us is to help us in our way to being like Christ. Interestingly enough, the most current statement regarding birth control does not contradict the scriptures or President Kimball or any other prophets. In fact, the church’s recent publication, Eternal Marriage, includes President Kimball’s quotations when discussing birth control. Thus, they are, in fact, being discussed and approved by the office of the First Presidency currently. Apparently, the First Presidency believes that at least the quotes they have chosen are still relevant today.
Many times, the reason for generality or a seeming “change” in acceptable standards is due to the wickedness of the people, not a a change in God’s law. His law is clear. Multiply and replenish the earth is simple enough for a child to understand. It is the doctrine of the family, it is The Plan.
That being said, with the high prevalence and lifelong effects of pornography, abuse, and violence even within the church, the ideal is simply not possible for some. Hence, the mercy in allowing each couple to make their own decision without fear of unrighteous judgments or lower standing in the church administration.
In an ideal society, I believe there would not be a need for birth control at all. I believe, in an ideal society, the people would have enough faith in God that He would open and close the womb in His wisdom. We (myself included), however, are FAR from ideal, and are “little children”. We must be led along until we reach a more perfect place individually, then as families, then, hopefully, as a people. Until then, I really just hope that women and men understand the dangers of chemical forms of birth control and the doctrine of the family before they make any decisions.
I keep messing up the reply thing, and accidentally post it on random places of the conversation! Sorry about that. Here’s my response
Misfit Cygnet, I’m glad you hopped in.
It seems there may be some confusion about what I am communicating (maybe I’m not doing a good job
) . I am NOT advocating for birth control. The only thing I am advocating for is that we follow the current counsel of the Church, and leave the decision of when and how many children to have between each couple and the Lord. Calling others to repentance is appropriate, when you have stewardship over them (like you said– so calling on other random members would not constitute stewardship), but in this case the appropriate application would not be to call couples to repentance by telling them when and how many children to have. Rather, it would be to “call couples to repentance” by advocating that they always seek God’s inspiration regarding family planning, and follow it obediently. I appreciate your frank discussion of birth control in the post above, and think it contributes to what is appropriate “calling to repentance.” You specifically referenced that it is a decision between God and the couple, but gave points to consider in that process. What I took issue with were the other comments below your post that made specific allegations as to when couples should have children, disregarding the counsel that it is between God and the couple.
You said:
Many times, the reason for generality or a seeming “change” in acceptable standards is due to the wickedness of the people, not a a change in God’s law.
I would agree that in the past this has been the case. However as I understand it, no truths established in the final dispensation will be taken away again. If you have other doctrinal information that contradicts that, I would be interested to read it! It’s possible I’m missing something.
I think this quote from Elder Oaks sums up my sentiments well:
“A desire to follow a prophet is surely a great and appropriate strength, but even this has its potentially dangerous manifestations. I have heard of more than one group so intent on following the words of a dead prophet that they have rejected the teachings and counsel of the living ones. Satan has used that corruption from the beginning of the Restoration. . . . Following the prophet is a great strength, but it needs to be consistent and current, lest it lead to the spiritual downfall that comes from rejecting continuous revelation. Under that principle, the most important difference between dead prophets and living ones is that those who are dead are not here to receive and declare the Lord’s latest words to his people. If they were [alive], there would be no differences among the messages of the prophets. “
I would like to add a thought regarding restored truths…
God’s Law is the law of consecration. It was revealed to Joseph Smith that the United Order was God’s application of this law, and a restored truth. We do not currently live this law as a church, but it is not lost just because we now, as a general church live the lesser law of tithing. In have been asked to live the law of consecration as much as possible within our stewardships.
God’s Law is multiply and replenish the earth.
This is a truth. While the current policy is not
simply that, it does not mean that the truth has been lost. It is still there and many have the freedom to follow it.
Polygamy is another truth restored truth that is not currently practiced, but by no means is it lost.
Just some thoughts……
Absolutely right on…..the trick is in allowing everyone who truly seeks the fullest law to learn line upon line, until they are brought to the fullest knowledge with love and compassion and non-judging while they wade around in the lesser laws.
Also, polygamy, while I fully agree with your statement, it is one of those truths that not only requires being brought to the knowledge and testimony of it, but actually requires God’s complete institution of it through Priesthood keys. While many other of the higher laws only require our understanding and obedience to them.
God has mercy on our generation raised in the career and ego driven education system, and the anti-family media and pseudo-scienctific agendas. It’s really not a big surprise that many of us do not feel ready at all to have children when we first marry. We must have mercy and understanding towards one another.
Spot on with the law of consecration– it is still in effect, particularly in the context of the temple. Likewise, the command to multiply and replenish the earth is in effect (which is complemented by the current church statement which clarifies that obedience to that law is fulfilled within marriage based on personal revelation to the couple through God). Polygamy, however, was straightforwardly taken away. To me this implies that it is not an eternal truth (all truths restored will not be taken away… thus logic leads….). The best insight I ever gained to the practice of polygamy can be read here: http://squaretwo.org/Sq2ArticleCasslerPolygamy.html.
Further, polygamy was never restored as a commandment for the whole church– it was a select sacrifice required of certain people, which is in fact the way it always was. It was never a full “truth,” required of all people.
Great discussion, I’m glad we’ve been able to be civil and understanding.
Love the discussion–thanks for your points.. Actually, while polygamy seems to be an uncomfortable topic, and since, honestly, in attempting to keep all the commandments for which I am currently required, I rarely have time to consider it! I did run across several statements from General Conference that I have to say convinced me that polygamy is a truth and a commandment (though not required of us at this time…probably due to the wickedness of men, etcetera). The fact that we can still read about it, and the fact that it is spelled out in the standard works as an eternal truth, shows me it has not been taken away, though we are not required to live it now.
For example, we were commanded to build the New Jerusalem in Jackson County. Because we aren’t drawing up plans, and it was not required of the whole church to move there, does not mean that we still aren’t going to someday be required to do it. Maybe that’s not a good analogy. I don’t know. I am too pregnant to think straight these days!
Just one quote from Brigham Young:
I am not advocating practicing polygamy at this time, nor will I even attempt to try and comment on President Young’s statement. I follow the current prophet.
However, a careful study on the subject of polygamy (just do a search for the word) at scriptures.byu.edu is a very enlightening read. Also, reading the testimonies of women who were in polygamous marriages is extremely interesting. I don’t want to get too doctrinally deep here, so I will leave it at that. Once I master repentance and charity I’ll worry about that more.
I do feel that each person could benefit from studying out these ancient truths from their sources restored and understand them a bit better, rather than ignoring it because we are not currently asked to practice it…I believe we can each receive personal revelation regarding this difficult to understand truth…even if the answer is, “Trust me, and don’t worry about it.”
As I was reading your comment, I felt compelled to turn to the manifesto. And, after reading it, I must say…I don’t feel it was not straightforwardly taken away. Nowhere in the manifesto are the words “thus saith the Lord, polygamy is to be taken from the earth” or something along those lines.
It was stated that “We are not teaching polygamy or plural marriage, nor permitting any person to enter into its practice…” and then “…I publicly declare that my advice to the Latter-day Saints is to refrain from contracting any marriage forbidden by the law of the land.” -Wilford Woodruff (emphasis added)
Due to the wickedness of men, laws were placed that discriminated any person who practiced polygamy from basic rights. In the end, there was too much to lose by continuing the practice at that time. So, we were advised to obey the laws of the land, which is what we’d already been asked to do in D&C 58:21:
“Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land.”
Further more…I believe that polygamy is still practiced to this day, in the sense that men are able to be sealed to more than one woman, just not at the same time. Here is an example, Elder Nelson was married for a long time, then his wife passed away. He re-married not long afterwards, and was sealed to his second wife. The sealing to his first wife is still in effect, thus, in the eternities, Elder Nelson will have those two wives.
Similarly, my late grandfather was sealed to my grandmother. At some point they received a secular divorce, but as far as I am aware, their sealing is still in place. My grandfather also re-married, and was sealed to his second wife. Would not he, then, be considered a polygamist as he is sealed to two women?
Food for thought…
Amen
Here are some quotes that were provided in our D&C Seminary Teacher manuals when we covered polygamy in section 132 The first was just a directive to teachers personally:
“Note: Avoid sensationalism and speculation when talking about plural marriage. Sometimes teachers speculate that plural marriage will be a requirement for all who enter the celestial kingdom. We have no knowledge that plural marriage will be a requirement for exaltation.”
This quote was provided to help explain why some commandments are given but then God asks for people to ‘supposedly’ break the first commandment:
“Share the following statement by the Prophet Joseph Smith:
“That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another.
“God said, ‘Thou shalt not kill;’ at another time He said ‘Thou shalt utterly destroy.’ This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted—by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire” ( History of the Church, 5:135).”
And then to help explain why plural marriage was practiced early in this dispensation:
“Share the following statement by President John Taylor:
“In and through [the] various dispensations, certain principles, powers, privileges and priesthoods have been developed. But in the dispensation of the fulness of times a combination or a fulness, a completeness of all those dispensations was to be introduced among the human family. If there was anything pertaining to the Adamic . . . dispensation, it would be made manifest in the last days. If there was anything associated with Enoch and his city, and the gathering together of his people, . . . it would be manifested in the last days. If there was anything associated with the Melchizedek priesthood in all its forms, powers, privileges and blessings at any time or in any part of the earth, it would be restored in the last days. . . . For this is the dispensation of the fulness of times, embracing all other times, all principles, all powers, all manifestations, all priesthoods and the powers thereof that have existed in any age, in any part of the world” ( The Gospel Kingdom, sel. G. Homer Durham [1943], 101–2).
The discussion in the manual then leads to teaching who received revelation to practice plural marriage and who received revelation to discontinue the practice. To stress to the youth that both were prophets who held the proper priesthood keys.
And finally this quote is in the student seminary manual:
“Elder BruceR. McConkie explained: “Plural marriage is not essential to salvation or exaltation. Nephi and his people were denied the power to have more than one wife and yet they could gain every blessing in eternity that the Lord ever offered to any people. In our day, the Lord summarized by revelation the whole doctrine of exaltation and predicated it upon the marriage of one man to one woman. ( D.&C. 132:1–28 .) Thereafter he added the principles relative to plurality of wives with the express stipulation that any such marriages would be valid only if authorized by the President of the Church. ( D.&C. 132:7, 29–66 .)
“ All who pretend or assume to engage in plural marriage in this day, when the one holding the keys has withdrawn the power by which they are performed, are guilty of gross wickedness ” ( Mormon Doctrine, 578–79; italics in original).
Thanks so much, Chocolate! This is one thing I am really not well versed on…I tend to accept that it is a true principle that had to be restored and go on my way and trust God and not worry about it. It is great to have these references.
I also think President Young, when referring to the fact that the only people who can be exalted are those who practice polygamy, was referring to that particular time when people were commanded to do so….just some thoughts.
Thanks, Kels, for your link, too. Interesting reading.
Sorry for commenting three times in a row…I’m wondering if the volume of comments is what is causing everyones comments to be distributed randomly throughout, instead of consecutively?
Anyway, hopefully this one will remain closest to my comment concerning the manifesto, unlike the last one…
My polygamy comment was directed to kels, and I hope it all made sense.
Again, I apologize for the multiple comments. :S
No problem. And I agree with you on President Young’s quote– we have to remember to read those quotes on context! That is so important. Great discussion.