A few years ago, my college age daughter had to break the news to her roommate when she saw the offending quote glued into her scriptures. She tried to break it gently:
“The Church has come out with a statement about that quote. Would you like to see it?”
Then she showed her roommate the statement. (And, yes, she did indeed carry a copy of that as well as President Kimball’s talk on the soul kiss around with her.) The roommate was somewhat disappointed, but accepting.
A statement has been circulated that asserts in part that the youth of the Church today “were generals in the war in heaven … and (someone will) ask you, ‘Which of the prophet’s time did you live in?’ and when you say, ‘Gordon B. Hinckley’ a hush will fall,… and all in attendance will bow at your presence.”
A notice from the Office of the First Presidency reads:
“This is a false statement. It is not Church doctrine. At various times, this statement has been attributed erroneously to President Thomas S. Monson, President Henry B. Eyring, President Boyd K. Packer, and others. None of these Brethren made this statement.”
The notice about the statement, which was sent to General Authorities, Area Seventies, stake, mission, district and temple presidents, and bishops and branch presidents, instructed that priesthood leaders “should see that it is not used in Church talks, classes, bulletins or newsletters.” Also, the notice instructed them to “correct anyone who attempts to perpetuate its use.” 1
Sadly, I grew up hearing that quote, and I may have had one tucked away in my scriptures if I weren’t so scatterbrained as to continually lose the handouts so plentifully given to me during my time in the youth program. Perhaps the perpetuation of this story and others very similar to it have led us to where we now find ourselves; perhaps it is the culture of our decaying yet decadent society–more than likely, it is a little bit of both. But, we do seem to have a problem on our hands.
The problem is that the rising generation is a generation of children (ages 7-30+) who feel that they are entitled to the “blessings” of heaven and earth, and who fully expect to be immediately and posthumously rewarded for what they view as “greatness”, but what used to be considered mediocrity. This was nowhere more apparent than a few weeks ago when he was a substitute teacher for the 7 year old class at church.
Sunday Candy
My husband was telling his Primary class that he had a pop quiz for them. He was using his “excited teacher voice.” They were nonplussed.
There was an awkward silence, and then one of the “great kids” spoke up and said:
“Okay, so what do we get if we answer the questions?”
My husband was a bit confused at first, so he kind of looked at the boy and said, “What do you mean?”
“You know, like candy or something. What do we get if we answer the questions?”
My husband responded, “You get the satisfaction of participating.”
“Whatever,” another one of the “good kids” responded. Some refused to answer, others participated half-heartedly. Later on, when the class was almost through, one of the kids spoke up:
“So, seriously–what do we get at the end of class for being good?”
The other kids chimed in, wanting to know what their reward was for sitting through class and being relatively non-disruptive. My husband took that opportunity to try and teach them that he was not there to give them candy for being good. The children sat in disbelief as it finally dawned on them that he really didn’t have anything.
My Primary aged children come home every week hopped up on candy. My 13 year old daughter comes home with elaborate treats made to go along with the lesson–stars made out of rice crispy treats, rope tied in pretty knots made out of licorice, homemade donuts, etcetera. My son gets Starbursts for bringing his scriptures to class (something his teacher mentioned over the pulpit in his talk today in sacrament meeting).
I have noticed that Sunday seems to be incomplete without candy. I wondered where this notion came from, and did a little research on it. Candy makers realized, after successfully campaigning in the 1920′s to get Americans to buy candy on holidays, that they could get Americans to buy candy every day.
In 1928, the National Confectioner’s Association sponsored a co-operative advertising campaign with the slogan “Sweeten the Day with Candy!” Ads in major magazines like the Saturday Evening Post encouraged Americans to enjoy candy every day. And as part of this campaign, ads included the reminder: “Take Home Candy for Sunday.” Promotions along these lines, with the same slogan, had appeared locally beginning in the early 1920s; the NCA was attempting to make the Sunday Candy idea a national tradition.
I believe they succeeded. I also discovered that Mormons aren’t the only ones using candy as a reward for “being good.” In Edmonton, Canada:
Kathleen Crowe says her nine-year-old daughter Angeline was playing in MacEwan park last week when she was approached by a couple from the Victory Christian Center who gave her candy and a Bible verse. Angeline was also promised more candy if she memorized the verse.
Other churches are bribing children to come on the bus to Sunday School with candy, one family chose a church at least partially based on the “coffee hour” spread after services, and there are many other churches offering candy just like we do–for good behavior, singing, bringing their scriptures, etcetera.
What’s so wrong about that, you may ask? (Although I doubt it. Most people know inherently that there is something wrong–even if they can’t quite put their finger on it.)
What’s wrong is that we are telling our youth they are great, amazing, stellar, phenomenal, fantastic human beings, but we are treating them like animals.
Rewarding children with candy for acceptable, normal behavior is known as “behavior modification,” a technique most often employed in training animals. We are telling the kids they are “exceptional” and “fantastic,” but our actions say something–and definitely teach something–entirely different. Our youth are not animals, and they do have a capacity to be the most incredible force for good the world has ever seen, but we are not helping them get there. They catch on to the game we are playing, and they learn to have no respect, a sense of entitlement, and, in the process, their fledgling testimonies are damaged.
Studies On The Effects of Rewards and Praise
All growing up and into my adulthood, I have heard that self-esteem is key to children’s success. The answer to all these studies showing the importance of self-esteem led to the “everyone gets a sticker” syndrome, or in the case of church, “everyone gets a Starburst” syndrome. I found this extremely interesting:
From 1970 to 2000, there were over 15,000 scholarly articles written on self-esteem and its relationship to everything—from sex to career advancement. But results were often contradictory or inconclusive. So in 2003 the Association for Psychological Science asked Dr. Roy Baumeister, then a leading proponent of self-esteem, to review this literature. His team concluded that self-esteem was polluted with flawed science….After reviewing those 200 studies, Baumeister concluded that having high self-esteem didn’t improve grades or career achievement. It didn’t even reduce alcohol usage. And it especially did not lower violence of any sort. (Highly aggressive, violent people happen to think very highly of themselves, debunking the theory that people are aggressive to make up for low self-esteem.) At the time, Baumeister was quoted as saying that his findings were “the biggest disappointment of my career.”
So, that was wrong. Which I am relieved about, because it was too hard for me to be consistent in praising my kids for every single thing they do. Because of some blessed experience, I learned long ago not to base any kind of self-worth on my children’s performance, so I didn’t have the motivation that Baumeister believes is behind the continued overpraising of American children:
Baumeister has come to believe the continued appeal of self-esteem is largely tied to parents’ pride in their children’s achievements: It’s so strong that “when they praise their kids, it’s not that far from praising themselves.”
They also found this, which I also found interesting:
According to Meyer’s findings, by the age of 12, children believe that earning praise from a teacher is not a sign you did well—it’s actually a sign you lack ability and the teacher thinks you need extra encouragement. And teens, Meyer found, discounted praise to such an extent that they believed it’s a teacher’s criticism—not praise at all—that really conveys a positive belief in a student’s aptitude. 2
Oh, how I have seen this with the youth program! So many youth smile and joke around with the leaders, and then turn around and trash talk them. The leaders are completely oblivious. They also seem really cool, and the youth seem to really “relate” to them, but those children have zero respect for them. Zero anything. They don’t trust them and they realize that all the praise is just the adult’s way of telling them they are stupid.
Scholars from Reed College found this alarming information:
The scholars found consistent correlations between a liberal use of praise and students’ “shorter task persistence, more eye-checking with the teacher, and inflected speech such that answers have the intonation of questions.”
Dweck’s research on overpraised kids strongly suggests that image maintenance becomes their primary concern—they are more competitive and more interested in tearing others down.3
This sounds like our youth in ark culture today. There is also scientific evidence that excessive praise can lead to altering the brains pre-frontal cortex, and create a “praise junkie.” If you couple that praise with food, you could create a monster.
In a classroom where students can make choices about learning and have tasks of worth to explore [that should be a perfect description of a classroom teaching the restored gospel of Jesus the Christ!], the need for punishments or rewards declines sharply. Both rewards and punishments, says Punished by Rewards author Alfie Kohn, are ways of manipulating behavior that destroy the potential for real learning. 4
Now, I realize that science can only take us so far (and is often wrong), but there is something to this. I have seen it happening over the course of at least two decades. Praise is not working with our youth. Our youth get praised weekly, often over the pulpit–and here is the leadership looking at the sea of youth in our ward, who are wearing clothes with their cleavage falling out, boys who won’t get up out of a chair for an aged lady, kids who go to dances and dress, dance, and display themselves as immoral–the leadership is saying, “These guys are fantastic!!!” At least let’s be honest. These guys are not fantastic. In fact, they are awful–because they have the potential to be fantastic, and they are happy with being trashy and mediocre. Maybe it’s because we spend too much time on praise and rewards.
When the rewards involve candy, we start to really ruin everything.
Research on child eating habits has shown that foods used as “rewards” become more desirable to children than if they had not been used as rewards. So, when candy is used as a reward, children come to like it more and want it more than they would otherwise.
When we reward children with candy, we are teaching them to eat junky stuff that is not in the Word of Wisdom as a reward for “being good.” What kind of flawed thinking is that? We are teaching them that food is not used for nourishment and joy, but for pleasure and acceptance. We are not teaching them anything beyond punishment and reward, and while most kids will do what you want them to do to get the treat, and it might look as if they are becoming more mature, they have not moved one step further towards becoming more responsible. Also, things can get pricey:
A major problem of bribing people with rewards is that the cost inevitably increases. Although a candy bar may prompt a five-year old to behave appropriately, it will cost you more to persuade a fifteen-year-old.
Notice also that this approach promotes a mentality of, “What’s in it for me?” which lacks any sense of moral development or social responsibility. The reward becomes the motivator, instead of the expected standard of behavior.5
So, on top of treating the Primary classes and youth classes we teach pretty much like circus animals, on top of that, we are teaching them to associate food with something other than nourishment, and teaching them that just doing the bare minimum (ie, you are breathing and sitting on a chair! YEA!!!! Good Job!!! Here’s some sugar!), and getting a reward leads to the “What’s-In-It-For-Me?” syndrome that President Faust so eloquently and lovingly condemned in his masterful address, “What’s In It For Me?“:
So, What Do We Do?
One teacher confided in me that she was afraid to quit giving out candy. She didn’t know what the kids would do, or if they would even keep coming to class. Another leader confided that we’d better allow the Singles Ward to meet at 2 or 3 pm, because otherwise, they wouldn’t come because it would be too early for them. Still other people working with youth seem terrified of the idea of having a Youth Conference that does not include an amazing trip to somewhere amazing, a $5000+ budget, and a semi-celebrity (especially in Utah, there are semi-celebrity Mormons everywhere, presumably to speak at youth conferences and give concerts at youth events). The Single Adults have to have a cruise as an activity?!?!? Well, that’s what I learned from all that research on bribery rewards….you can reward a 7 year old with a bag of Skittles, but the price goes higher as they get older.
So, what can be done? Well, first, let’s consider who should be doing the rewarding in a spiritual setting….
Wait…you’re close.
Yes. The Spirit. Heavenly Father. He is the one who gives us our rewards. We can safely shut up and get out of the way so that the Spirit can speak and the children can hear. What a novel concept.
When we are so busy using our “excited voice” and promising “pizza parties at the end of the year!!!!!!” and other things, we are drowning out the sweet, still voice of the Spirit. When we are focused on righteousness, He is our reward. Not a piece of junk.
I came into a Senior Primary in Provo that was out of control. They were offered all kinds of incentives to bring their scriptures, sing, be quiet, pay attention, not lean their chairs back, sit still, not holler in the middle of a lesson, etcetera. They got candy, candy bars, toys, visual aids, etcetera. I was the chorister. Having no desire to shop at a regular store for candy, and having even less of a desire to use cartoon visual aids, I decided to treat them as young MEN and young WOMEN.
A miracle happened.
They sang. And sang. In between singing, I would talk about the meaning of the songs, the troubled world they live in, their testimonies, did they have one? I talked about singing a testimony. Could they do that? I talked about the Mormon Tabernacle Choir (my friend was in it! So, I was “in the know”), and how they behaved and what their mission was. Could our Senior Primary do that?
Yes. They could. By the time we were ready for the presentation, my beautiful kids had learned how Jesus Christ was, there had been testimonies shared–for the first time–in singing time. Children would raise their hand when they felt the spirit and share there testimonies! The pianist often turned to me and said, “I never want this to end. I don’t even want to go home.” The teachers sang with testimony. We were divided with boys on one side and girls on the other. There was no fighting or carrying on or loudness. They sat and stood on command. They sang in parts. And they sang with conviction. I got letters from the children telling me they had learned that the gospel was true because of singing time.
They sang beautifully. It was a holy experience.
Why? Because I am so fabulous? NOPE. It was precisely because I didn’t reward them. I let God reward them. I pointed out the Spirit and explained to them those feelings were God telling them they were doing the right thing. Compared to that, some junky piece of sugar that was fleeting and gone and gave them a headache was not even desirable anymore.
I spoke what God told me to speak, not what I thought would be great to say. I listened. I got out of the way and let the Spirit teach.
That can and should happen all the time. But, it doesn’t. Because as adults, we are afraid of “losing” them. If we lose them because we don’t have candy and cruises, we never had them anyway.
God’s Rewards and Blessings
When we reward children at church with fancy prizes, cool and lavish dances, parties, and expensive outings, we are teaching them falsely. They come to think that if these are the things they get from leaders when they are righteous, God better give them stuff that’s even more AMAZING!!! God gives us amazing gifts, but not the way they have been raised to believe.
For example, many youth, having had presents and money and things heaped on them for any normal behavior, come to think that if they are good they will be blessed with lots of money (This is a HUGE problem with adults in Mormon Ark Culture). This is not true.
God’s version of amazing often involves not having money when we are righteous. Or not having money so we can stay righteous. Often, having money as a so-called blessing would be more rightly called a “stewardship.” God’s blessings like that are really more responsibility, stewardship, and accountability. If you have been blessed with money, how did you consecrate it? That will be his question. It’s really more of an assignment than a blessing, in my mind. And for many raised in this culture, it is simply a curse. How are they going to react when they get the blessing of no money?
Some other examples of God’s rewards being different than our society might like:
- I am so thankful we are blessed with good health because we keep the Word of Wisdom.
Fine that is good, but someone else could be blessed with something totally different:
- The Lord has blessed me with this cancer for so many reasons, and I am so thankful to Him. Having always kept the Word of Wisdom, I was surprised when I found out, but I have been given to know it is a way the Lord wants to bless my life.
The Lord’s rewards don’t always seem like rewards because He actually knows what our soul longs for. Our soul, as an eternal being in embryo, is not nearly as temporally minded as our minds are. So, He rewards us according to His will and pleasure, and it’s not always the way we thought.
- I am so blessed that my prayers were answered and my daughter is safe. She was miraculously healed from a tragic accident. The Lord has rewarded me greatly.
Could also be the antithesis to this reward:
- I am so thankful that my daughter was able to pass on through the veil after her accident. Even though we prayed for her to be alright, we received the miracle that she was allowed to go Home. While it does not seem like much of a blessing, I know it is. I have been given to know that I have been blessed with this kind of miracle.
Because when we are righteous, the reward isn’t always a pinata, or a trip to Maui. Sometimes it’s not so fun. Kids growing up with these false reward systems will be ill-prepared to face any real life trial or tribulation. They will be horribly ungrateful to God if the reward is in the form of something, that to mortal eyes, seems like a punishment.
They will be confused and they will falter. It will be nigh on impossible for them to get through life. Let’s not continue in the process of raising nincompoops who could have been the finest warriors God has ever had. Let’s do something about it!
Recommended Reading:
Why I’m Going To Quit Saying “Good Job!” (or at least try)
Are We Raising A Generation of Nincompoops?
I am interested in doing a follow-up article doing a more in-depth look at rewards and how Heavenly Father has used them, and perhaps how that can apply to us…would anyone be interested, or is it just me? 
Let me know.
{ 64 comments… read them below or add one }
That happened to me today during a Sharing Time I was in charge of. The girls team “won” and one young girl could not believe that I didn’t have treats for them. I’ve never considered how treats are really degrading.
I’m very interested in this statement that Kohn said: “Both rewards and punishments, says Punished by Rewards author Alfie Kohn, are ways of manipulating behavior that destroy the potential for real learning.” Is he stating that I shouldn’t punish my 5-year old for hitting my 3-year old? I’m inclined to think that to not punish at all is not good, but then, I’ve felt over and over again in my mothering that I need to be more loving and patient and less lecturing and punishing.
Which leads me back to my Sharing Time. The Senior Primary was SO irreverent, and I am very frustrated with myself and how I handled it. Being loving does not come easily to me, I guess. I didn’t yell at them, but the Spirit wasn’t guiding me, because I forgot to ask. I asked a lot during my week of preparation and the morning of, but when it came down to it, I was just so annoyed with their disrespect that I forgot to petition the Lord for help. Ugh.
First, D&C 121 is the best parenting scripture out there. Starting in verse 41, we learn how to correct appropriately. I gave a talk about this at church, and then posted a VLOG with (what I think, but what do I know?) important insights into “correcting with sharpness” among other things.
I think it is really important to look at how God parents us. Yes there are punishments, but what are they, and when do they happen?
I am far from perfect in my parenting, but I reach for these types of ideals.
VLOG post:
http://liahonajourney.wordpress.com/2011/06/19/doctrine-and-covenants-121/
Kohn’s book is one of the few parenting books I own (mostly to loan it out to people). It really helps to read the whole thing. He’s not advocating we don’t discipline our kids, more that we let natural consequences happen. He’s talking about when we try to manipulate our kids into doing things: “If you get straight A’s I’ll pay you $100″ or “be nice to that kid and I’ll buy you some candy later” versus “if you don’t study you wont learn anything and it will be harder for you to take care of your self and understand the world as you get older” or “how would you feel if no one played with you? Would you want other kids to feel that way?”
I don’t know if those are the best examples, but that’s a lot of what I got from the book.
hmm…maybe i just need to read it again. i read it when my first was just a little baby! that makes me feel better because i do try to do some of this. appeal to their better natures and have natural consequences more than punishments…
I totally agree with this. I have wondered about the Scouting program in the same way you have talked in this article. It’s odd to me that when the boys are younger (Cub Scouts), they only get the reward after they have accomplished all 12 requirements (or however many it is), but when they become Boy Scouts, they get a reward for everything they do. It’s like the rewards get more and more as they get older, and then if you’re an adult in the program, every year there’s a “banquet” (if you can call it that) to give rewards to the adults. For me, Scouting is a calling, and I don’t think we need to get rewarded for it, when everyone else just does their job without the fanfare. Just my two cents. Once again, you’ve nailed it right on the head.
Thanks!
God punishes the wicked, and I would like to look more into that in another article–the concept of holy rewarding and punishing.
I don’t find that punishing as the antithesis of rewarding does much for good behavior in our family. The power of good for good’s sake is so absolutely beautiful compared to the horrible feeling of doing something wrong. Usually that’s enough for small children. As long as I help them understand that the sinking feeling and the confusion is the withdrawal of the Spirit. I am thinking more on that, and of course, I don’t take everything scientists say with too much weight. It always has to be weighed with prayer and thought to discern truth and error. They are wrong generally at lest 60% of the time.
That being said, we don’t really punish in our house the way others would think of it. Even when my oldest did something really stupid, there was no punishment–just the natural consequences of being stupid and making a poor choice, which, in my estimation, was punishment enough. Loss of trust, increase in honest work to teach honesty, and some other things were no fun for him, and hopefully, he has learned his lesson. Loss of the spirit was horrible. He didn’t do anything really immoral, just a dumb mistake that could have been avoided. He was mostly guilty of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, but we had him write essays on the chapters in the Miracle of Forgiveness. I guess some people might consider that a punishment, but we all thought of it as an opportunity to change and repent and learn.
I rarely get annoyed at out of control Primary children. I usually blame it squarely on the shoulders of their parents, environment, and their false expectations. I just stop talking and close my eyes and say a prayer quietly to myself right in front of them. Then, they kind of look at mestrangely and I say, “Do you hear that?” And they are wondering what I am hearing, and I say “Can you hear it?” and then they usually try to listen. And then I say, “Oh, there it is. I can hear the Spirit now.” And then I say, ‘When I open my eyes, I want to see that you are hearing the Spirit, too. I’m going to count to three and then I am going to open my eyes and see all of your beautiful faces…1,2,3.” It has never not worked, but it could be for reasons I don’t understand. And it may not work for everyone…
That’s a really great idea for helping kids be quiet and try to feel the spirit! Thanks for sharing.
I don’t know if I could agree that science is often wrong because of the way my husband showed me for looking at it. He tells me that science isn’t about “truth” or what is “right or wrong.” It’s just the body of knowledge we’ve gathered by observation and testing hypotheses. But the way you see things in the news, it makes you think science must be either “right” or “wrong.” “New study shows X. New study shows Y is wrong!” When you’re working with physical sciences like chemistry and geology it’s not so bad. You’re working with things that are easy to test and quantify. Life sciences like biology are a bit harder and less mathematical. But then you get to the social sciences like psychology and things really go downhill. It’s unethical to test many theories on people and extremely difficult to isolate variables. So, since in this post you’re talking social science, yes, scientists are probably “wrong” more often than not! But, I think they are just trying to learn more about us humans and doing it the only way they know how- which is, sadly, without the spirit. With the spirit- now imagine how much more we could learn!
I love science and find it definitely has it’s place, but can totally agree that we need to follow the spirit first and foremost. I like to try to search out the best science I can find on a topic I’m interested in and see what “the world” has to say and do my “homework” then take it to the Lord and see what further light He can give me. I feel like He would expect me to do my part in trying to learn and not just come to Him and expect an audio lecture on vaccinations to pop into my head. ( : I’m sure I can do better at this, but that’s my goal anyway.
Thanks for the remarks on science, Holly. I agree with you! I like science, too. I just don’t want people to think that because there is a study, it’s the truth. I should probably not worry about that with the people who read this blog, though, since we all seem to be independent thinkers!
Thanks for this idea. I’ve been thinking that a quieter approach would be more effective.
I appreciate your thoughts- as usual! The tidbit you wrote about cancer possibly being a blessing was particularly interesting to me as I’ve experienced that. It would take up too much comment space to explain, but I think that the blessings I received from having cancer far outweigh the misery of it. Oh, and I’ve had someone tell me to my face that I had cancer because I essentially “ate the wrong food.” He basically believes that we have control over our health and as long as we eat the right things and avoid the wrong ones we’ll be healthy. I could agree that we should abide by the word of wisdom our whole lives, but otherwise that’s just ludicrous. How do you explain exclusively breastfed infants born of word of wisdom abiding mothers who are afflicted with severe illnesses? I am much more comfortable with the idea our Heavenly Father has some unique challenges for each of us and sometimes that means health problems- whether or not we abide perfectly by the word of wisdom. I think that goes right along with the fact that there are some incredibly righteous people who are poor and who are rich.
I’d be interested in more thoughts about how our Heavenly Father rewards us righteously and how we are to do this in our own lives. I agree with what you’ve said here and already try to avoid this pitfall, but sometimes it’s hard to know what on earth to do. Our bishop lets the kids raid his office every Sunday after church for candy if they brought their scriptures. It’s a madhouse in there and it really bothers me. I try to skirt around the crowd and get out before my kids even think of it.
Lastly, you want to hear a good one? Last fast Sunday my ward did a “break the fast” ward party in the cultural hall. On fast Sunday. The worst part? The women were all supposed to sign up to bring soup (the ward provided rolls and salad.) The soups were all in crock-pots plugged in all around the kitchen and when it got full, even in the R.S. room. You could smell all that delicious soup all through church. Near the end of R.S. the presidency all left the lesson and went out to start setting things up and I could hear brethren out there setting up tables and making all kinds of noise. Minutes after R.S. was over and it was only 4:00 in the afternoon apparently fast Sunday was over for my ward! There was a full-blown party going on in there with all the tables and chairs set up and the food put out and everyone chatting and kids running around. We grabbed our poor confused children and left and I had to spend ages trying to help them understand why we weren’t staying. (They are too young to even be fasting, so they were clueless about it all.) So, so sad.
I just have to say that I see some contradiction. You say in one breath that the natural consequences were enough to “punish” your son but then you go on to imply that the Lord blesses or punishes us. I don’t actually believe that the Lord micro-manages our learning just as I don’t believe that a hovering parent can do anything but harm and stunt a child’s growth. We are in a mortal world and we get hurt. I believe our Heavenly Father is there to guide us when we ask, but I absolutely do not believe He has His hands in all things as some people that cry from the pulpit seem to believe. He may have certain lessons He wants us to learn but He does not force us to learn. Just as a school teacher may wish a student would apply himself, she can not force him to take advantage of the learning opportunities she provides. It is up to us to learn about the nature of God and apply it to our progress in life. Natural eternal laws are usually what punishes us for mistakes or sins.
You are right, Sarah. I am still thinking this through. I agree with you, but I can also see that the Lord sometimes does get involved in things, even though we are not forced to learn. Burning the camp of Israel when they complained seems pretty involved, but he didn’t force the children of Israel not to complain, He just incinerated them….
That’s kind of why I want to do a little more research into what God means when He talks about rewards and punishments, and how I can apply that as a parent. I haven’t really made a study of that specifically on my own before.
Thanks for your insights…I like what you had to say.
My friend’s ward has a very similar problem; they had a chocolate fountain at a primary activity once!! Unbelievable.
I feel very blessed in that our Primary president doesn’t believe in candies and treats. They get handed out only very rarely, and as far as I’m aware, it isn’t based on good behaviour.
What is scary is how quickly associations between treats and behaviour can get locked in; at my husband’s workplace, there is a large dish continually topped up with candies. For a while, he was bringing little sweeties home with him every night because he liked the experience of excited children greeting him at the door. Now? They don’t even say hello to him or give him a hug before shouting, “SWEETS!”. The novelty has certainly worn off for him, but now the association has been cemented in their little brains. Even the 20 month old does it! (although, to be fair, she copies every little thing she sees the older ones doing)
I used to be a puppy trainer at a pet store. The methods you’ve described in your article could easily be used to housebreak a dog. :/
My hubby and I were just lamenting this very fact.
I am constantly in awe how you manage to come up with a post on something that we are currently struggling with or trying to work out. I am indeed thankful for the thought you put into each one of these posts. Sometimes I feel like they are direct for me.
(I especially love the new “reading” section at the end. I have these ones marked off now.)
I could give you all my “horror” stories as well, but suffice it to say, I am excited to try a few of your ideas out and see how well the work for me. I am also thrilled to try a few new parenting things, because after all, we are not perfect beings and I can always use a little bit better approach.
My friend and I were *just* talking about similar things via email! We don’t use food as a bribe or reward, and when my middle daughter was 5, we had a huge struggle with a Primary teacher who gave out candy every Sunday. We don’t eat a lot of candy, and I told her I didn’t want her accepting the candy, please, because it was causing too much disruption in our pew (Sacrament meeting is last in our block). A few weeks later we were in the car, and out of the blue, she piped up with, “Mama, it’s a problem.” When I asked her what the problem was, she said, “You want me to be a good girl in Primary, and I want to be a good girl in Primary, but my teacher gives the kids who are good candy, but you don’t want me to take the candy, and I don’t want to be bad. It’s a problem.”
Thankfully, the teacher chose to slow down on the treat-passing-out after we talked, but it’s still a problem… our BISHOP passes out candy after meetings. My kids are, thankfully, aware that we don’t participate in candy mobs, and that mobbing for candy is NOT a reverent way to behave in a church building.
We see the reward/disrespect cycle at all ages… it’s highly frustrating, and I think your thoughts are spot-on.
We don’t bribe our kids with goodies or toys to sit nicely in Sacrament meeting. We don’t praise them for being decent human beings (though when they are small, a brief hug and “I appreciate you sitting so nicely. Come cuddle up to me,” really does encourage a tiny person). We do praise *hard* work and struggle, regardless of the outcome (“You’re working hard to understand X. Let’s keep working, let’s have a prayer together, let’s see what the prophets say, let’s keep working hard, and it will become more familiar over time. We can gain understanding, I’m sure of that.”)
Between their studies, and things music, family work, gardening, etc, I’m finding we get many opportunities to recognize *actual* accomplishment with some pretty intangible rewards (like a thank you and a hug, or a mention in a prayer of gratitude or supplication). I’m also noticing that my kids are rarely externally motivated, which is a bit of a sticky thing when the social pressure is to earn an Eagle award at 13, and my nearly 13-yo says, “Yeah, but the stuff they’ve done to pass off the merit badges wasn’t real, and didn’t DO anything… I’m not taking awards I didn’t earn.” My daughter would rather save her money and buy a piece of jewelry with personal symbolism as a reminder *along* her journey, not at the end of it. And she isn’t inclined to report back on her growth-activities, because the overly-hyped praise of leaders dilutes her satisfaction in what she formerly considered a job pretty well done.
Thanks for the good article. I’m humming, “You’re noooooooot alooooone…” in my head right now.
I do wonder how we will handle the teen years and all of the personal progress stuff. It seems pretty hyped up these days; when I was in YW nobody checked up on me and I only completed the Beehive .. thingie.. whatever it’s called. Granted, I was in and out of church activity during that age, but I still wonder if things have changed in the past 15 years?
Hmmm.
Our ward is practically doing it FOR them and everyone thinks it’s great! ANd now that all women are encouraged to do it, they’ve opened it up to them too. Every first Wed. is PP and the PP leader has everything prepped for the girls to finish one-two portions that night. The girls go through the motions, reading the scriptures together and the leader pep talks them through it. I was really startled at the last one; there is no room for personal contemplation, growth, or even the presence of the Spirit. Another push-them-through-stamp-them-on-the-forehead approach. Hey, they’ll all have their medallions by the end of the year, so what’s the big deal? Isn’t that the point? I thought the point was for each girl and woman to personally progress through studying the Gospel. It is really troubling to me…
I was what you would call “hyper” active in Young Women–I did everything! I craved praise a lot. My daughter is the opposite of me. She, too, prefers to do things on her own without the “program.” Mostly because, like others have posted, it is not implemented correctly. The leaders practically do it for the girls, they lavish praise over the pulpit when the girls receive their medallion (I’m not talking just handing them the pendant…they read a letter that the parents write to the daughter over the pulpit. The last one was 4 1/2 minutes long).
My daughter doesn’t want ribbons, etcetera. And she certainly doesn’t want a watered down version. We do it alone and I sign her off online. When she is done, we will let the bishop know, but we will also ask that they refrain from public recognition. It’s hard because sometimes I feel like we are so…different and odd, and some people mistake our “privacy” for not “supporting the program.” That has a lot to do with where we live, though. If the nearest church members were 50 miles away instead of 50 feet, they probably wouldn’t be bothered by our different-ness.
Stand firm in wanting more for them. My daughter may or may not complete all the requirements for her medallion. But I do know that she’s growing, spiritually, and learning to use her talents in service of others, and that’s my goal. Reading the program, that’s the program goal, too. Too many people mistake “doing” for “becoming.”
And, yeah, we get a goodly amount of flack for being “unsupportive” or “less involved”. I’m okay with that. I’m not sacrificing my kids for someone’s stats.
I don’t understand the food and candy in church anymore. So many kids have food allergies. So many parents have different ideas about healthy foods, and bad foods. Why not be respectful and just not do it? It says right in Teaching, No Greater Call:
“Do not reward reverent behavior with prizes or food.
Do not have contests to see who can be the most reverent.
These tend to focus on the wrong things. Teach
about the real rewards of reverence, such as increased
understanding and the influence of the Spirit.”
There is an entire lesson on how to teach reverence. I really wish this lesson manual was utilized so much more in the church. It would decrease so many incorrect teaching methods, and only help people teach in their own families better.
The teacher for our 8 year old boy hands out KING SIZE candy bars for each week that they behave in class. We talked about how silly that was and then my husband brought up the fact that the church leaders have asked teachers not to hand out candy in class. Our son then told told us that his teacher told the class that she KNEW the leaders had asked her not to, but that she was doing it anyway. GRRRR!!!! How do you stop that kind of blatant disregard? All we do is reiterate every Sunday how wrong it is.
I cannot stand handing out treats/food at church events…every.single.accomplishment has to be rewarded with food? Or there must be food or else folks don’t show (Even adults)? I am a parent of children with food intolerances and allergies and it is tough. The poor Primary presidency tries so hard to work around my kids that I have a tough time saying, “I’d actually rather my children not get anything at all.” But it is getting out of control again. It is in the handbook; why is it so hard to follow??? My 4 yr. old’s new teacher was perplexed because she likes to pass out gum or suckers every Sunday and none were kosher for my child. This is just my frustration speaking, but I’ve got a lot more to say on the pseudo-science behind it as well…
My daughter did a summer reading program put on my the library last year and got first place in her age group. YAY! It then took her another 6 months to regain her love of reading afterwards. NOOO!!!
My YW girls never bring scriptures, probably because they’ve always received rewards for it, and I don’t bring candy/treats ever. It totally is conditioning.
I recently prepared a lesson on Individual Worth and as I read all the scriptures in the personal progress book on Individual Worth, I had a huge (for me) inspiration. I think that self-esteem is Satan’s counterfeit for true worth. REading the scriptures on individual worth and divine nature both led me to realize that our worth is inherited as children of God–and our feelings of worth grow as we align our lives with God’s will for us! As we strive to keep close to the Lord and follow His counsel for us, we gain confidence in ourselves. True feelings of worth come from learning who we are and then doing what we are led to by the Spirit. At least, it seems like a better way than rewards/punishments and candy….
Self-esteem is Satan’s counterfeit for true worth. Reading the scriptures on individual worth and divine nature both led me to realize that our worth is inherited as children of God–and our feelings of worth grow as we align our lives with God’s will for us! As we strive to keep close to the Lord and follow His counsel for us, we gain confidence in ourselves. True feelings of worth come from learning who we are and then doing what we are led to by the Spirit.
This above quote from your comment…..is one of the most truthful and profound statements on this topic. Thank you for it.
My four year old has very serious allergies to nuts and eggs. He has been continually given foods that not only could hurt him but kill him. Teachers and presidency seem to see him as an annoyance almost because they can’t just hand out treats without checking all the time (though often they don’t anyhow) it has gotten so bad and his safety put in jeopardy one too many times that my mother has to follow him around on Sunday and sit in class with him because people will NOT STOP FEEDING the children. I don’t understand!!! It is beyond frustrating. If my mother can’t come to church with us at some point (we have other children we also have to be with on Sundays) then we will not be able to participate in primary…and there seems to be something wrong about that.
We refer to that in our family as “esteem in Christ” rather than “self-esteem.” Referring to this kind of esteem, Elder Nelson said:
And, President Faust said this, which I think, really, shows that true “self-esteem” really is esteem in Christ:
My friend told me about the topic this morning and I said, “She should read Punished By Rewards!” Too funny.
It’s interesting being in the scouting program. Every workshop I go to, someone tells about how they brought treats for boys who wear their uniform or participated or bribed them in another way. I’m always told, “Pack Meeting is their reward for all their work. It’s payoff time!” It’s a very difficult calling for me because the whole system is run like a giant Pavlovian conveyor belt. (I do need an attitude adjustment; it’s not my favorite calling). I’m trying to make it less about the patch and more about what they did.
Sugar at church drives me nuts. Our nursery leader weaned the kids off treats 2 months before starting sunbeams. Then my (gluten intolerant) daughter goes to primary and suddenly they’re giving snacks every week! Usually something with white flour so they scramble to find something for her so she doesn’t feel left out. Wish they’d just get rid of the food!
I love your ideas for primary. I get called to substitute a lot and there are some classes with very difficult children. I’ve generally found that when I expect them to be reverent, they are. But certain kids (all with less active fathers, btw) are much harder to help. I’m going to use your ideas next time. Thanks!!
I’m so not as wonderful as you guys and i really appreciate all this. i need to be a fly on the wall in your homes! I am doing well in some things, I try not to overpraise but instead to say thank you or “you did it all by yourself!” but i get confused by books like “the power of positive parenting”. have you guys read that one? its by a mormon guy and is very scripturally based, especially the other one he wrote about Christ-like parenting. I think his name is Glen Latham. We don’t do candy, except very randomly, and we don’t do tv or video games. But I still struggle with my strong-willed, short-tempered oldest (he’s 3 1/2) and I really just don’t know what to do if i don’t punish bad behavior and i don’t praise good behavior. I read that Alfie Kohn book ages ago and though it made sense, except now I just feel all confused about what I DO with my kids. I loved this post Misty, except now I’m kind of depressed about how not wonderful I am at this. What do you do when they are fighting? I only have 2 boys so far, 3 and 1, but I want them to learn to play together. I really appreciated the example about praying in front of the senior primary. I need specific examples! Any more you want to post about I would truly appreciate.
like, with boys that age, how do you not have any toys or snacks in sacrament meeting? what would you do?
We have never had toys or snacks, so our kids don’t know differently. We kind of let them “walk” in the “aisle” area. Sometimes, one of us will even take one for a walk around the church if they are particularly wiggly.
With a one year old, sometimes they just can’t sit still that long. That’s just because they are one. A three year old can be taught to sit through the hour, but it takes patience. Teaching them to have quiet times where you practice sitting like at sacrament meeting helps. We have the older kids give talks, and we sit with the little ones to kind of get them in the habit of sitting. Plus, the older kids love giving talks. Maybe your husband can give an impromptu talk while your three year old sits on your lap. They actually enjoy this kind of thing, in my experience. Then, you can sing a song, and be done. It’s just a little thing, but it gets them in the habit.
Otherwise, I have to admit, I have spent a lot of time in the hall over the last decade or so!
I read somewhere that boys at the age of 3 have the biggest testosterone surge in their bodies, second only to puberty. When I realised that some issues I was having with my son were stemming from a major growth spurt and hormone surge, it really helped me put things into perspective which then helped me to handle things better.
Megan, I am so glad I am not the only one who feels this way! Incidentally, I was pushed to research this because I made the mistake of rewarding my kids with candy the other night (something I really don’t do hardly ever!). I called my best friend and was like, “Well, I’ve totally bombed this…ugh!”
I think we all struggle with strong willed 3 1/2 year olds. They are all like that, I think. Maybe. At least all mine have been, and all the ones I’ve ever cared for, so…
I think that’s why I wanted to say science is sometimes wrong, and I don’t do parenting books. A study I’ll read–a paper, too. But I try to stay away from a whole book on parenting.
I am going to be studying God’s rewards and punishments. Since I started yesterday (all of my 25 minutes of study!), I have been inclined to receive some inspiration about what rewards are in His eyes, and it has opened mine.
When my kids are fighting, to be honest, sometimes I respond in like manner…sometimes I get mad, sometimes I cry, sometimes I reward myself with chocolate. But sometimes I get it right. When I get it right, I use it as a teaching time.
“Stop. That was wrong. Do you want to do it over or go to your room and say a prayer or something?”
That almost always works. One of my hard and fast rules is that I don’t tolerate fighting in my presence, so if they are fighting, they have to separate themselves and go somewhere to say a prayer or get it together.
Of course, our bedrooms don’t have anything in them but clothes and a bed, so there is nothing exciting to distract them in their rooms. If their rooms were a little kingdom of toys and their special things, sending them there would not work….
Your boys will learn to play together, if they don’t have a lot of distractions (ie, noise toys, tv, obnoxious music, etcetera). If there is the Spirit in the home, they will learn.
Right now, I happen to have two boys who are nearly 3 and 1, too. Mostly, the three year old loves his brother, but, really, they don’t do a lot of “playing” together at this point. The three year old likes his toys, and doesn’t want the nearly 1 year old drooling all over them, and the nearly 1 year old is content to eat small bits of paper and old granola pieces off of the floor.
They really start playing together when they are about 4 and 2, I think….there is still some fighting, but if you are consistent with doing it over right away, so they learn the right way to handle conflict, they can learn.
For the 4 and under set, if they do something like hitting, yelling, or being unkind, we tell them that’s not what we do in Heavenly Father’s family, and they are escorted to their room until they are ready to come out.
Of course, this advice is free and you get what you pay for. I make my share of huge mistakes on a daily basis, and half the time I don’t really think I know what I’m doing, but when I have the Spirit with me, these are the things I do.
The real key is to study the scriptures and PRAY! And don’t let distractions in your home that will keep you from feeling the quiet, gentle guidance of the Spirit. Also, it doesn’t hurt to pray for ministering angels. They really do come, and they are tremendously amazing mother’s helpers, let me tell you!
thanks, this helps. mine are actually getting closer to 4 and 2 and i think that’s why it got harder. now they can play together a little more and want to but don’t know how. and i don’t know how to help. i feel like i need to get in there and help them learn how to share and resolve disputes and take turns, but usually by the time i get in it they have both lost it and are crying, and as you know, not much learning happens then. but this has been helpful. the role playing/practicing sacrament idea is a good one too. we already do it a little and practice “lessons”, maybe we could practice sacrament meeting and sharing when we play.
Oh, no! Just because so many of us agree, doesn’t mean we aren’t all making mistakes! I tell my one yr old “good job” way too often and I have an extremely, EXTREMELY strong-willed 4.75 yr old who is apparently a chip off the old block as my mom wrote (in my baby book, mind you) that I epitomized the scripture “there must needs be opposition in all things”. Said strong-willed daughter is very difficult at times and it is all too easy as a desperate mother to want to bribe her–cringe. LOL It is always good to get “together” and discuss these things; it’s a great reminder to me.
Take heart, we’re all making mistakes too, lol. =)
oh that made my husband and i laugh out loud. your mother resorted to quoting scripture in your baby book to explain you. i love it! i definitely see that my oldest’s main problem is a really short frustration level, which, if i’m honest, is something i’ve struggled with my whole life too. so yeah, it’s no fair when you get your own worst traits thrown back at you through your children!
Megan, I am so glad I am not the only one who feels this way! Incidentally, I was pushed to research this because I made the mistake of rewarding my kids with candy the other night (something I really don’t do hardly ever!). I called my best friend and was like, “Well, I’ve totally bombed this…ugh!”
I think we all struggle with strong willed 3 1/2 year olds. They are all like that, I think. Maybe. At least all mine have been, and all the ones I’ve ever cared for, so…
I think that’s why I wanted to say science is sometimes wrong, and I don’t do parenting books. A study I’ll read–a paper, too. But I try to stay away from a whole book on parenting.
I am going to be studying God’s rewards and punishments. Since I started yesterday (all of my 25 minutes of study!), I have been inclined to receive some inspiration about what rewards are in His eyes, and it has opened mine.
When my kids are fighting, to be honest, sometimes I respond in like manner…sometimes I get mad, sometimes I cry, sometimes I reward myself with chocolate. But sometimes I get it right. When I get it right, I use it as a teaching time. “Stop. That was wrong. Do you want to do it over or go to your room and say a prayer or something?” That almost always works. One of my hard and fast rules is that I don’t tolerate fighting in my presence, so if they are fighting, they have to separate themselves and go somewhere to say a prayer or get it together.
Of course, our bedrooms don’t have anything in them but clothes and a bed, so there is nothing exciting to distract them in their rooms. If their rooms were a little kingdom of toys and their special things, sending them there would not work….
Your boys will learn to play together, if they don’t have a lot of distractions (ie, noise toys, tv, obnoxious music, etcetera). If there is the Spirit in the home, they will learn. Right now, I happen to have two boys who are nearly 3 and 1, too. Mostly, the three year old loves his brother, but, really, they don’t do a lot of playing together at this point. The three year old likes his toys, and doesn’t want the nearly 1 year old drooling all over them, and the nearly 1 year old is content to eat small bits of paper and old granola pieces off of the floor. They really start playing together when they are about 4 and 2, I think….there is still some fighting, but if you are consistent with doing it over right away. For the 4 and under set, if they do something like hitting, yelling, or being unkind, we tell them that’s not what we do in Heavenly Father’s family, and they are escorted to their room until they are ready to come out.
Of course, this advice is free and you get what you pay for. I make my share of huge mistakes on a daily basis, and half the time I don’t really think I know what I’m doing, but when I have the Spirit with me, these are the things I do. The real key is to study the scriptures and PRAY! And don’t let distractions in your home that will keep you from feeling the quiet, gently guidance of the Spirit. Also, it doesn’t hurt to pray for ministering angels. They really do come, and they are tremendously amazing mother’s helpers, let me tell you!
My husband and I have been discussing this very thing for weeks now. Treats at church are so frustrating for me – not only because they are always things we do not eat in our home (aka garbage) – but because of the message they send. I overheard some ladies in our ward talking about how when one of their sons was called as deacon’s quorum president, he could never get boys to fulfill the fast offering assignment. Her solution? She told her son to tell all the boys that helped the next week to come over to their house afterward. She had hot cinnamon rolls waiting for them. That was four years ago (apparently) and the boys in our ward still get treats every fast Sunday for doing their priesthood duty. I was so saddened! What is going to happen to all of these boys when they go on missions? There isn’t going to be anyone handing out candy for riding their bikes in freezing weather to knock on doors that will be slammed in their faces. There won’t be cinnamon rolls waiting for them on those days when appointments fall through and it feels like they are making no difference in anyone’s life. If we don’t help them learn to feel those rewards of the Spirit, as you’ve stated, how will they be prepared for anything? For leadership positions? For parenthood? It is just really a sad thing to me that no one seems to even pause and consider what kind of message they are sending with all of the treats, prizes, rewards, and bribes. I loved what you said: “If we lose them because we don’t have candy and cruises, we never had them anyway.” Well said.
I know what you are saying, but somehow I see this a little differently than just giving out candy for sitting still. If it’s just a “come and get your treat for doing your job, little puppies,” then something needs to change. But if, it’s “come in and let me show you how much I appreciate you young men for all you do, and let’s have a moment of hospitality to reflect on the Sabbath,” then, that might be a great moment of kindness and love that they remember for a long time. I don’t know….just a thought.
I agree that gestures of appreciation are appropriate and could be definitely used as teaching moments. But when it is something that is done every Fast Sunday (usually in the kitchen at the church before they all rush home), it seems that it has lost its significance and has become, as you said, a “Here’s your treat…” situation.
Misty, this is a great post with so many personal applications. Thanks for your thoughts, and your suggestions, and your humility. I appreciate those who don’t just assume that we have it all figured out with the philosophies of men, and who are willing to put everything to the test through the scriptures and the spirit.
Yes, please do the article on rewards by Heavenly Father. I have had numerous discussions with family members about this very thing. I have read Alfie Kohn’s Punished by Rewards. While I do not agree with him 100%, I do agree 100% that rewards and praise or overused in our culture. I think some praise is okay but try to be careful what I praise for and when. Thanks for the great article.
I have been a big fan of “natural consequences” since my husband and I worked with foster children when we were first married. However, I began to realize that logical or natural consequences worked better on paper than in the moment for me.
I don’t always use logical or natural consequences, because they take too long for children to see the difference. For example, when people first start drinking or doing drugs, they do not really experience the full brunt of the natural consequences until much later.
So, we come up with our own consequences that are more quickly felt. For example, if someone is moping around and sighing a lot and whining, they get to go clean up horse manure or clean the bathrooms. It’s not exactly a logical or natural consequence…but it’s what happens here.
Sometimes I don’t agree with everything you write, but I found myself nodding at almost every single point.
This has been a frustration of mine since I was 11 years old, when I had a Primary teacher who brought doughnuts nearly every single Sunday. The first time was fun, but after a while it just got old. I wanted an actual lesson! Not a party every week.
Then as a teenager, I was in wards with small youth programs and high inactivity rates. You have no idea what kind of bribery the young women leaders used to try to get these girls involved–my leaders had good intentions, but really what they were doing was rewarding them for being inactive (or on the verge). Those of us who were active…we pretty much got ignored. And these bribes just don’t work–the vast majority of the girls who became projects have nothing to do with the Church now. Yet, people keep doing it…you’d think they would learn!
It sounds like most who have commented here are fed up with all the tangible rewards, mostly food, at church. I’m sure there are more in our wards that don’t appreciate it as well. My question is, what are some real solutions? I’m tired of running the mini-sweeper in primary to catch all the cookie crumbs, and don’t even get me started on the goodies that come out of YW.
Real solutions?
Um, exactly what needs solving? The solution is to not offer food at church. If they ask for it, simply explain that the Holy Ghost gives rewards even sweeter than candy to those who listen.
They’ll get over it. They’ll still come. They will behave much, much better than they were when they were performing for treats. Try it and see what happens.
Also, while I’m here, did you know that no food in Primary is in the Handbook of instruction? THE handbook.
I don’t think she was wondering how to stop this herself, but to change the culture of her ward. I have been wondering this same thing (treats are not the problem).
I am the nursery leader and have been bringing fresh apples, bananas, or other fruit every week for over a year now. My partner for some reason insists that we offer them crackers first. The children never eat them because they know the fruit is coming.
My children do not get many treats in their primary classes, so I am not worried about the few times a year it happens. I am very interested to read about rewards though.
Um, of course THE solution is to stop offering food at church. I’m not the one bringing food.
But what solutions are there when teachers expressly go against instruction from the Primary President to not bring treats to primary? What solutions are there when you have a Bishop who keeps a candy jar in his office and whose wife makes cinnamon rolls for BYC? What solutions are there when there are extensive refreshments offered either before or after choir practice every week but fast sunday (choir practice is directly after our block). What solutions are there when your v e r y small scout budget is literally eaten up by “twinkie cars” at the pine wood derby?
Of course I meant, “how do we change the culture of our wards.” (Thanks Kellie for clarifying for me!)
Perhaps your ward does not have this issue.
The old handbook had the NO food in Primary guideline. I can’t find it in the new one (just read the Primary section again). In fact, “food” isn’t even listed in the Index. Could you please provide the section in the new handbook where it says no food in Primary? I desperately need to show it to a few people.
I should have said that I was addressing Mrs. Smith’s comments to me.
http://www.lds.org/pa/display/0,17884,7701-1,00.html
Unfortunately, the new handbook simply states:
What is the policy for food in Primary?
Counsel with your priesthood leader for direction.
It didn’t used to say that though! On sugardoodle.net, there is a quote from the old handbook:
Food should only be provided when it is included as part of a lesson or as a snack for the children in the nursery class. Be sure to consult with the parents of each child about any dietary restrictions that may be caused by conditions such as diabetes or allergies (see Church Handbook of Instructions, Book 2, 239)
http://www.sugardoodle.net/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=972&Itemid=200003
I don’t know why it has changed, but I can see how it would be frustrating to not be able to point to the handbook and ask for and end to treats. :/
I was just looking for this section in the new handbook a few weeks ago. The explicit “no food” part seems to have been taken out. The only part that addresses food (and now I can’t even seem to find that – it seems like it was in an FAQ section) says that policies about using food need to be determined through counsel with priesthood leaders.
I was frustrated by that, but someone pointed out that in some areas, people travel long distances to get to church and having a snack for children is needed because they are away from home for such a long block on Sundays. I think the new handbook is making allowances for wards to meet the needs of their members. It is frustrating, however, that so many in our culture seem to think children “need” loads of sugar, etc., etc,. etc.
I am not a fan of the word punishment as it pertains to parenting–I think the word that should be used instead is discipline. You don’t need to punish children you need to “discipline” them which hopefully eventually leads them to self-discipline. I will preface this by saying that my daughter is an only child so I have no experience with hitting and biting and other sibling things but my daughter would have a freak out and I would very calmly say–go sit in your rocking chair and calm down. She eventually learned to recognize when she was freaking out and would calm herself down before it grew. Punishment in the parenting world tends to say–You are bad–you need to be punished. Here is your punishment–where as discipline means–you are not in control of yourself–here’s how to get control of yourself–child can hopefully eventually say–I am in control of myself.
Have you read the article in Nature from last week? There are scientists saying the sugar should be just as regulated as alcohol because of the terrible addictive qualities and health consequences. They want it removed from the GRAS list (Generally Regarded As Safe) which currently allows manufacturers to put it in any amount into any food. Go scientists!
For those interested, You have to be subscribed to read the actual article but there are several opinion pieces that summarize the main points. You can search for “The Toxic Truth About Sugar” (the title) and will come up with several pieces. Here are some I found:
Should Sugar Be Regulated Like Alcohol and Tobacco
YouTube Video of Researchers
Regulating Sugar Like Alcohol: CNN
I think you hit the nail on the head with your experience as a chorister: you treated them as young MEN and WOMEN. From my experience, many children are treated like young TEENAGERS. A teenager is a modern, and terrible, invention. (I won’t go on but do a bit a research and you’ll see they didn’t exist until the last century.)
For my young family I find that teaching and discussing topics like “dominion” and “stewardship” go a long ways to internalize the rewards of being reverent, bringing scriptures, and “good” behavior at church and elsewhere.
Tonight we had a great discussion about dominion sparked from an article I read last week.
I do think I need to do a better job to call out the divinity in my children and God’s vision for them. Our boys and men need a call to action and we women/mothers can do that.
It wasn’t until I referred often and openly to my husband’s role as “protector” that he finally chose to forgo watching professional sports. As a former college athlete he loved to watch and it was something he did with his own father.
He would go to great lengths to watch since we don’t have TV. But as the protector of our home his view on whether or not to bring that influence to his children changed dramatically. It’s no longer an issue of nostalgia or enjoyment, it’s an issue of stewardship and defending his home and family. But it took me calling it out in him for things to finally change permanently.
What would happen if we treated our children as young MEN (provider/protector) and WOMEN (nurturer/lioness at the gate)? What if we could communicate to them the vision of this war we are in and their place in it? I believe that there is real power in this vision for them and for us.
Thanks for the reading list and the great article.
Wonderful articles! I can’t wait to go through them all.
Though I was once a MAJOR sugar addict, I have been off sugar since July, and I have not been sick with a cold or anything like that ONCE since I quit.
Amy–I edited your article so I could highlight it as a featured article with the references you added. Thanks for the comment!
After a careful study of the word of wisdom, I really feel that eating sugar actually goes against it:
“foods to be used with prudence and thanksgiving”
prudence: 1) caution in practical affairs; discretion (wise self-restraint) or circumspection (discretion out of concern for moral or social repercussions)
2) care taken in the management of one’s resources
3) consideration for one’s own interests
Are we truly keeping the word of wisdom if we overeat? Waste food? Eat junk food? Use food as a boredom reliever, emotional salve, or reward? I don’t think so.
What’s interesting about everyone’s experiences is that the treats on offer are *all* unhealthy. There haven’t been mention of fresh fruit salads (delicious) or a veggie and dip tray (also wonderful), which many kids would heartily enjoy!
Sugar is toxic to the body. It is addictive. I know, because I am struggling in the grip of it right now!
I sometimes wonder if a future prophet will talk about living closer to the word of wisdom’s principles and ask people to stop eating sugar. President Hinckley did it with caffeine, right? (but that’s me speculating/daydreaming)
I was really struck when I recently re-read the entire Little House on the Prairie series of books. They pretty much never had treats (for one because they couldn’t afford them and two because they had precious little access to them.) When they did have treats it was in serious moderation. The girls got 1 stick of candy for Christmas. That’s it. There’s even a part about Ma letting the kids only having a taste of the pork “cracklings” because they were too rich. For a very special occasion Ma would make “vanity cakes.” They knew how to truly enjoy and savor a treat because it was so very, very rare.
What a contrast to the huge bag of Valentine’s candy my daughter just came home from school with- which I’m torn about because I’d like to just chuck it, but then I’d have to deal with the tears! It’s a vicious cycle.
I think the frustration stems out of trying to find a nice way to get people to quit giving out candy to our children.
Especially when it involves a life and death allergy risk, I have been really disappointed to see that people just don’t get it. The giving out of treats is so tied to their self-esteem that they refuse to stop, thus sending some children to the hospital. But, they will not admit that the candy/food was the problem.
If the bishop is one of the ones giving out candy after church, and does not see a problem with it, then none of the leadership probably will, and you are kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place. (We had this in a ward we were in before–the kids would line up in the cultural hall every Sunday to get their candy from the bishop…aside from the fact that I don’t like candy, I felt that it sent the wrong message to the kids. I felt that it was an attempt to develop trust through sugar, and that is exactly the same tactic pedophiles use. And, most pedophiles are not strangers–they are people children know. There is no need to teach children that that is an acceptable way to gain trust…)
The Teaching, No Greater Call manual specifically states that we should not reward reverent behavior with prizes or food. While not the Handbook, it is still a manual published by the church and should be followed.
Also, regarding the cinnamon rolls on Fast Sunday, that seems completely not a good idea. For one thing, we are missing the point of the blessings and law of the fast:
I just think it takes away from all the joy that can be found on that day, not to mention that using it as a conditional reward is just treating the boys like Pavlov’s dog.
I agree with Joyful Saint that food can be a sign of hospitality. Brigham Young once said in regard to this subject:
I think that is a good philosophy–if you are being hospitable, give them something that will nourish them and assist them in feeling the Spirit.
Our solution has been to not participate in the candy frenzy. If that means that our children cannot attend Primary class without one of us sitting with them (because the teachers will not take “no” for an answer), then we go with them, or they come with us. If anyone asks, we just tell them why. Not in a condescending way or in frustration, just kindly and without emotion.
Another solution is to quietly and gently find out who else agrees with you on the subject. If enough people find out that others agree with them, and then speak up, things will change. But, too often, members are afraid to say anything against the status quo for fear that it will be taken as “contentious,” ” questioning authority” or “negative and divisive.”
Seriously, however, the giving out of candy divides those who can eat it from those who cannot (what about Type I and Type II diabetics, kids with Asperger’s, kids with obesity issues, hypoglycemics, etcetera?)….
Great post, I loved this. Thank you for taking the time to write it. I would love a follow up article.
The comment threads about feeling the Spirit being the reward instead of any food reminded me of this story by Sister Susan Tanner:
“I remember an incident in my home growing up when my mother’s sensitive spirit was affected by a physical indulgence. She had experimented with a new sweet roll recipe. They were big and rich and yummy—and very filling. Even my teenage brothers couldn’t eat more than one. That night at family prayer my father called upon Mom to pray. She buried her head and didn’t respond. He gently prodded her, “Is something wrong?” Finally she said, “I don’t feel very spiritual tonight. I just ate three of those rich sweet rolls.” I suppose that many of us have similarly offended our spirits at times by physical indulgences. Especially substances forbidden in the Word of Wisdom have a harmful effect on our bodies and a numbing influence on our spiritual sensitivities. None of us can ignore this connection of our spirits and bodies.”
The entire general conference talk can be found here: http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2005/10/the-sanctity-of-the-body?lang=eng
What a great quote! Thanks for sharing that, Cocoa!
Hi Misty,
I am late to this discussion, but thank you so much for saying how I have felt for a VERY long time! (And I love this comment: “STOP Feeding the Children!!!” LOL!)
Interestingly enough, my 16 year old son gets REALLY irritated whenever he hears the whole “This generation is more righteous… etc.” stuff. He insists that HE can’t see it. And he’s right! Our youth know that they are being fed a line when they can see for themselves that the praise is often unwarranted.
As a mother, I think the best praise a child can get is when they see for themselves that their efforts in the home and among their family are needed, important, and necessary. They know that if the dishes don’t get done, our family will have trouble eating. They know that we all depend on them to take the garbage out, sweep the floors, cook dinner, etc.. ACTUALLY contributing to the good of others is its own reward. And that feeling is better than ANY amount of stickers on a chart or sugary treats can give.
I DO, however, think there is a powerful lesson in showing my children GRATITUDE when they do something that helps our family. But that comes in the form of an “I noticed,” or a “Thank you for making our home a happier place,” and a hug or kiss. I think that teaches a powerful lesson about appreciating others, too.
Thank you for a great post! (Oh, and do you have the link to the Kimball quote on the soul kiss? I’ve been looking for that one for AGES! Thanks!)
Love ya,
Mama Rachel
P.S.– I am the same kind of primary chorister, and I can be a second witness to all you’ve said here! When we treat children with respect and remember that we leaders are there in Primary to help them gain a testimony and not just play mindless games, we have IMPACT.
I love it– I second it!!!
Hello Misfit! I am a closet reader and I love that you always give me somethignt to think about. Thank you for that. I do wish there was less sarcasm in you tone in some of your posts, but for the most part, you really get me thinking. I have recently been called as a teacher in the YW, which has always been one of my favorite places to serve, if not one of the scariest…but currently I am serving with a wonderful president who longs to get back to basics. She encourages the girls to write down their thoughts, teaching them that it is important to write them down so they might go back to them someday and that THAT is their reward for seeking after the spirit and enlightenment. They don’t need cookies to tell them that they felt the spirit, they need to learn for themselves how to discern those feelings, what does it feel like for them?? ANd often, by writing things down they can learn to see patterns in their feelings and personal revelation. What a great reward!!! they don’t need all of the other. What a disservice we would be doing to them to lead them to believe that there is always a tangible reward for what we do well (or that we get rewards even for poor, half-hearted effort, which is too often the case in our youth programs!) Anyway, thank you again for your insight and info.
I know I’m late to the conversation on this one, but thank you for so much for posting this. I am currently serving as the Primary president in my ward, and while we have been obedient in following the counsel to not give food or treats to the children, and certainly not to reward reverence with food or prizes, I didn’t fully understand WHY we don’t do these things. Your words led me to study more about the true rewards of the Spirit. I am committed to more actively teach my children to watch for those rewards and see the joy in them. I pointed it out today in an especially spiritual sharing time, and what a blessing it was for the children and the leaders! In leadership meeting this morning, we were able to have a good conversation about this topic, which I hope strengthened our ward and our vision for the youth. Thank you for the inspiration!
Another problem, which you’ve touched on, but not with great focus, is how very BAD for us sugar is. It is addictive, causes dips and drops in the immune system’s functionality, is nowhere found in the WoW, and often manifests as aspects (or all of) ADD, ADHD, HD, etc.
We periodically go on sugar fasts, but generally just don’t do candy. Sugar is in SO much that when you fast from it you have to make mostly everthing at home – which I do a lot of, but it’s ridiculous how insidious sugar is! I have truly come to believe it is one of those things that the destroyer of our souls is using to bring people DOWN… and what “sweet” thread-like cords they are… but he’s still draggin’ us right along where he wants us when we use that one of his many tools (sugar/sweeteners)!!